Drivetrain thoughts

[Fran Hall RCR]

Come on guys....
Give me some idea of what you are looking for
NEW OEM supplied or
Ebay/Junk yard take outs....
With the relocation of the most famous exo car taking place...some potential customers may stray to the dark side....
I dont really want to supply drivetrains but an idea of where your head is would be nice...... :eyecrazy:

I have been in some deep discussion with OEM type suppliers and whilst some customers may well be prepared to purchase a BRAND NEW OEM type package the prices being quoted to me are upsetting.

Again , the SL-R is my attempt at value for money , and smiles per mile fun...my hope is that many if not most people will purchase a take out or crashed drivetrain and keep the spirit of cost effectiveness clearly in sight.

I have a call scheduled tomorrow with a supplier of another OEM crate package...this time Ford....to see if a solution can be found....

Its a real bummer that the domestic (and Japanese for that matter) OEM's have really lost sight of the ball with their crate engine packages.....Oh well...leaves room for us enthusiast to make ourr mark I suppose.....

[Nikolai]

At this point I'm leaning heavily to a Honda B or K series build, of the used variety. There exists an incredibly strong/reliable/available base platform, and the aftermarket and enthusiast community is about as good as it gets...

[Chadillac]

I was just planning on picking up a front clip (K20A2) off of the internet. Cheap (~$4,000), and I'm guessing it has everything you need. A slightly used japanese engine does not scare me at all. However, I might be tempted if you had a new engine package and installed it there. Then I could just fly out there and drive it home. Then I wouldn't have to pay for shipping! And I want to see all of those other beautiful cars you make that I can't afford.

[Karlo]

At this point I'm leaning heavily to a Honda B or K series build, of the used variety. There exists an incredibly strong/reliable/available base platform, and the aftermarket and enthusiast community is about as good as it gets...

I agree with Nikolai, the large aftermarket Honda community, makes the decision easy. A Used K20a for me.

[Degeneerit]

Turboing a NA car is not a task to be taken lightly. Sensors, compression ratio, strength of internals and almost all the engineering of the engine is designed around the turbo in a FI car. The k20 Honda is my favorite engine but its extremely expensive and not good for FI. The MZR 2.3 DISI is the perfect solution. It has been around for a couple years, would produce well over 300hp with the relocation of the intercooler and probably isn't as expensive as the 200hp k20. It also incorporates all of the newest innovations in the compact turbo market.

http://www.reginamazda.com/index.php?Itemid=206&id=59&option=com_content&task=view

To endorse the performance of this powerful engine, the MAZDASPEED3 MZR 2.3 DISI Turbo engine made Ward’s top 10 Best Engine award list. This is zoom-zoom at it’s best!

Mazda’s MZR 2.3L DISI Turbo injects fuel into the cylinders at pressures as high as 1,600 psi, which cools the combustion chambers (internal cooling effect) through latent heat of vaporization, thereby improving the charging efficiency. This can increase torque by up to 10 percent at certain rpm ranges compared to a conventional manifold injection type turbo engine, making powerful, easy to control torque available across a wide range of engine speeds. This high power and easy to use flat torque curve is attained by the use of a fixed geometry turbocharger.

The internal cooling effect within the combustion chamber increases the cylinder charge volume under initial acceleration and hence the exhaust-gas flow, causing a linear increase in rotation speed of the turbocharger's compressor wheel. As a result, the turbocharger provides boost effect soon after the accelerator is pressed assuring excellent response at low to mid-engine speeds.

High-pressure direct injection of fuel into the cylinder also results in an optimized air fuel mixture forming in the vicinity of the spark plug, reducing the risk of misfire. This allows earlier ignition, making it easy to raise the temperature of the exhaust gas. Moreover, use of a lightweight, fixed geometry turbocharger dramatically reduces the thermal capacity of the exhaust system, minimizing the loss in temperature of exhaust gas. As a result, the catalytic converter reaches its activation temperature faster after the engine is started.

Because the internal cooling effect within the combustion chamber reduces knocking tendencies and boosts fuel economy without sacrificing low end torque, the MZR 2.3L DISI Turbo engine has a relatively high compression ratio for a turbo engine of 9.5:1 which contributes to improved fuel economy.

[Nikolai]

Degeneer...

Glad to have put a bug in your ear about the Mazda MZR 2.3T DISI drivetrain, as I've definitely enjoyed it in my Speed 3 and have given it serious thought for use in other apps like the SL-R... but...

I feel I'm in a unique position to offer analysis here, considering, as I said, I currently own a Mazdaspeed 3 with the MZR-DISI motor and have been following its aftermarket support, and I've previously built a custom Honda turbo setup for my daily-driven Integra (on a motor originally built for NA).

Agreed, a motor that is FI from the factory has all sensors and programming built-in from the start, adding simplicity and elegance in that regard. However, the fact that the MZR uses DISI and other latest technologies like drive-by-wire, adds major obstacles to the mix that have not been entirely overcome for custom apps. And as a personal note, the tranny on this engine is very inferior to those on the K and B series Honda motors, and torque on the Mazda mill is only solid from about 2.8-5.5k, vs. a broad 2k-8k+ delivery on a Honda NA or SC setup. I think this point is quite important on an app like the SL-R, where short-lived torque delivery will feel leaps and bounds shorter propelling a 1,300lb car. Plus there is no solid aftermarket ECU option for the DISI yet, though Cobb Tuning is expected to release their AccessPort for this app very soon...

The k20 variants (and B-series), however, have a huge and well-developed aftermarket following. For example, Jackson Racing makes bolt-on supercharger kits for several K-series variants that are all-inclusive, even including re-flashes, largely negating any need for custom dyno tuning. Offerings like these have actually proven very reliable from my observations, and do not require intercooling, adding further to its simplicity. I've seen K20 motor/tranny packages for ~$3-4k shipped, with another $2.5k for a JRSC setup new from JR, should someone desire the added power. All this and the understanding that one of the first drivetrain mounting options on the SL-R will be for the Honda K-series.

I know, opinions are like a$$holes, and everyone has them... But that's my $0.02. :D

- Nick

[aloysius]

Hi Fran, to answer your question:
I am planning on an SL-R purchase and am waiting for more information and pictures to be made available. I have purchased a Honda rsx x2m5 6 speed transmission since it's the commonly available and I anticipate using a k24A2 engine. I understand that all of the K series engines have similar mounts. If you have already done the design work, I assume that your mounts will work without modification. If you know, I would appreciate knowing what is going to be used between the frame hard points and the engine in the way of mounts and the axel requirements and dimentions for the Honda drivetrain choice. Other questions include: What fittings does the fuel tank have for fuel lines, pumps and gauges? Will these need to be welded in? Does it include a standard pressurized cap that can be tested by the emissions cops? Have you provided a dash for the Digidashlite instruments? Will the harness mate to the Honda connectors? I have only a thousand more but already have used up my space.

It surprises me that there aren't more questions concerning the specifics of the SL-R design. Maybe I'm just too anal.

[AZDave]

I've been originally looking at the K20a RSX Type R but have possibly changed my mind for the 2.3L Cosworth Duratec Ford engine. It's a bit pricey but still fits into my allowed budget (set by my wife).

What are your thoughts on this engine since there hasnt been alot of talk of using a ford drivetrain.

[bolus]

The 2.0L GM LSJ ecotec in my Atom has served me very well. I know that Brammo had trouble getting good support from GM about anything custom on the car. But the next re-iteration (the turbocharged LNF) might be a way to go. Just dont expect custom ECU tuning from GM unless Jay Leno helps you out.

It is nice knowing though that if I blow up my engine I can buy a new one for $2800.

Or you can go with a Hartley H1 v8. 2.8L, 375 naturally aspirated horsepower at 10K rpm, 210 lb-ft torque at 6.5K rpm. www.h1v8.com

There is one of these in an Atom :)

[Nikolai]

Or you can go with a Hartley H1 v8. 2.8L, 375 naturally aspirated horsepower at 10K rpm, 210 lb-ft torque at 6.5K rpm. www.h1v8.com

Wish I had $$$ for one of those... Believe me, it'd be at the top of my list!

[Benji]

Wish I had $$$ for one of those... Believe me, it'd be at the top of my list!

You really don't. There is another company which has done the same thing (Powertec RPA V8) and the service interval/rebuild time is measured in hours rather than miles......

Nice engineering work for sure but.... no thanks.

[B-T]

A used Jap engine for me would be my preference. They are durable and cheap enough that if they get trashed, a replacement is not that heartbreaking.
Honda, Mazda, Nissan all are fine by me.
BT

[Degeneerit]

Trust me I have never owned a domestic and am not a fan of domestic engine. The SRT-4 is not as heavy as I thought the engine weighs 339 pounds (with the alternator, but without the A/C compressor, power steering pump, or any oil in the pan). At $3000 thats half the cost of a k20 with twice the hp potential. Hard to ignore those #s

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/projectcars/0310scc_dodge_neon_srt_4/index.html

[BSchoolProf]

I'd go with just about any motor making 225+hp, although I'd have a slight preference for a Japanese motor for the greater reliability. To that end, I have a friend who's parting out a wrecked 2008 Accord V6. The V6 might be a bit heavier than some alternatives, but you would still have a phenomenal power:weight ratio. Would a V6 such as that fit in the SL-R?

[Nikolai]

I'd go with just about any motor making 225+hp, although I'd have a slight preference for a Japanese motor for the greater reliability. To that end, I have a friend who's parting out a wrecked 2008 Accord V6. The V6 might be a bit heavier than some alternatives, but you would still have a phenomenal power:weight ratio. Would a V6 such as that fit in the SL-R?

Someone on this forum is fairly stuck on using a V6 from Nissan's VQ offerings. I believe Fran said he thought it would work, so long as it's pulled from a FWD platform.

[ICBomber90]

Someone on this forum is fairly stuck on using a V6 from Nissan's VQ offerings. I believe Fran said he thought it would work, so long as it's pulled from a FWD platform.

GOOD LUCK, I have been "looking" for such drivetrain from a '05+ Maxima w/ a manual transmission (when SL-C was going to use a transverse drivetrain), very rare combo and none have shown up on salvage auction web sites.....

[ICBomber90]

Trust me I have never owned a domestic and am not a fan of domestic engine. The SRT-4 is not as heavy as I thought the engine weighs 339 pounds (with the alternator, but without the A/C compressor, power steering pump, or any oil in the pan). At $3000 thats half the cost of a k20 with twice the hp potential. Hard to ignore those #s


I'm beginning to think the SRT-4 engine is the way to go, there are plenty for sale here: http://www.ridesafely.com/minventory.asp?vt=A&description=SEARCH%20FOR%20SALVAGE%20CARS%20AND%20 TRACKS
Search under Dodge Neon

Bet a guy could get a low mile wreck for < $2,000 and make back most by parting out the rest on e-bay and have a very cheap & powerful motor. :coolnana:

Pat

[Nikolai]

How wide is the power band on an SRT4 power plant? Because, again, if it's "only" 3-4k in a Neon, it's going to feel like 1k in a SL-R.

[Karlo]

Stock SRT-4 2004 engine RWHP

[Nikolai]

Wow that is some serious torque... rwhp = rear wheel horsepower, no?

http://www.hondata.com/reflash_jrsc.html

Though that torque sure is fun, I'll be happier with a 6k usable band over the 3k afforded by the SRT and MZR-DISI motors. I just don't think a short-breath torque monster will be all that enjoyable in a 1,200 lb. vehicle. But again, that's just my personal preference. :spin:

[Gage]

Bolus, I wish I had a budget for that engine. LoL

Everyone, my advice on choosing an engine and transmission is this:

First find someone who uses it and knows alot about it. Then ask them:
How do you tune it? What software do you use? Who can use that software? Where is your tuner? How hard is it to make adjustments to the tune after serious modifications.

Please believe me... your access to a tuner or ease of having it tuned is essential to the long term success of your project.

Then, find out what the transmission is like.
You probably wouldn't believe how much stress and problems a weak or poorly shifting transmission will make in your project's joy return factor.
It makes a HUGE difference.

Finally... back to the engine. What kind of aftermarket support does it have? Figure out everything you want to do to it before you start the project so that you don't discover later that some of the parts you had in mind for modifications DON'T EXIST yet, or are sickly expensive.

I'm going with a 2006 K24A2 from an Acura TSX myself. It sits in my garage. But those V6 guys are really tempting me. Grin

[Gage]

By the way, you guys quote really high prices on some of that mechanical essentiota. :awais:
Bargains can be found.

[Gage]

Fran,

Offer both options. Advertise to the customer that you can supply a roadster with a low milage salvage yard engine, or a new OEM Engine. They decide. You already have sources lined up, reputable salvage yards, and OEM suppliers... you have the driveline shipped to your shop. The customer who doesn't want to do all that dirty work then DOESN'T HAVE TO. Everyone is happy.

As for prices, the best stuff is usually painfully expensive. Quality costs. There is no way around it.

I wouldn't touch a Ford drivetrain for this kind of application, but that is simply my personal preference, not an insult to anyone.


Come on guys....
Give me some idea of what you are looking for
NEW OEM supplied or
Ebay/Junk yard take outs....
With the relocation of the most famous exo car taking place...some potential customers may stray to the dark side....
I dont really want to supply drivetrains but an idea of where your head is would be nice...... :eyecrazy:

I have been in some deep discussion with OEM type suppliers and whilst some customers may well be prepared to purchase a BRAND NEW OEM type package the prices being quoted to me are upsetting.

Again , the SL-R is my attempt at value for money , and smiles per mile fun...my hope is that many if not most people will purchase a take out or crashed drivetrain and keep the spirit of cost effectiveness clearly in sight.

I have a call scheduled tomorrow with a supplier of another OEM crate package...this time Ford....to see if a solution can be found....

Its a real bummer that the domestic (and Japanese for that matter) OEM's have really lost sight of the ball with their crate engine packages.....Oh well...leaves room for us enthusiast to make ourr mark I suppose.....

[nikos]

I have talked to Fran on the phone and I also agreed that this should be about value for money. Paying 10 to 13K for a motor and tranny is kind of expensive.

In my opinion, to keep cost low, the buyer should be willing to do some wrenching.. like attaching a transmission to a motor, or installing a clutch etc...

The k24a are cheap motors, the ones off the accord or CRV or element. Combined with a 5 speed or 6 speed tranny, I think that would be the intro motor..

Ballpark Pricing
NON VTEC k24a accord/crv/element engine package Complete turn key around $3000
(includes motor, tranny, alternator, starter and the correct engine harness)

VTEC K24a2 TSX or k20a2 Rsx type s swap around $4000

k20a type R swap $5500-$6000

k24a/k20a2 hybrid made from mating a k24a block with a VTEC head

$5000-$7000 depending on whether stock or aftermarket pistons, rods are used etc...

k24a or k20a fully built with pistons, rods, cams, valvetrains, $7000-$12000 depending on LSD, sleeves etc...

On top of the motor, ECU managemenet will be needed like the hondata Kpro and of course a header and intake piping etc...

After that, you could get a supercharged k24a, or k20a2 from supercharging stock motors to fully built motors... Budgets and goals dictate the cost.

I do have to say that since this car is going to be referred to as the ATOM replika, whether you like that or not... I think that it would benefit from a k20a or k24a style engine. After all, without a doubt in my mind, it is the best 4 cylinder platform for ALL MOTOR performance.

I have built several k24a motors and installed more than enough and I do have to say, that as far as cost, it is the little things that drive the cost up... Even though I sell the complete motors for $1000, by the time you are done you are around $5000 because the little things add up..

So let's assume we start with a k24a out of an accord k24a4 (2 million accords on the road today in the USA)

So $1000 for the motor

$1000 for tranny

$500 for clutch and flywheel

$300 for engine harness

midshaft + axles $700

$1000 hondata Kpro ECU

$150 for alternator and starter

$300 in misc honda parts llke pulley, bolts, etc..

So you see we are already at $5000+ and that is a stock 160 whp motor..

Since you are trying to get something good, you might as well swap a complete k20a2 swap for $4000 + $1000 kpro + axles = $5500-$6000 for 200 whp

or you might want to do a k24a with a k20a2 head for more

The motor pictured here, I sold for $11500

http://www.k20a.org/upload/SSC_0103.JPG

k24a block with 89mm sleeves, JE custom pistons 12.5:1 compression
6 speed tranny with LSD
IPS cams billet steel 8620 K2 mark2
RBC manifold from 2006 civic Si
k20a2 oil pump on k24a block
hondata kpro
axles
header
shifter+ shifter cables.

So as you see things add up..

I am in the process of building a few crate shortblocks, but these are for people that are mechanically inclined to be able to install a k20a head on them and attach a clutch and a tranny.

My point of all this is... if you want to save money, get ready to get your hands dirty and learn in the process... If you want everything done for you and ready to drop the motor and turn the key, someone else has to do the dirty work and someone else has to pay for it..

Good luck,

Nikos

[Karlo]

Thanks Nikos

Great comments:thumb2:

We are still trying to work out details on a warranted Honda engine package between 5500-13k. I think we are getting close, seems to take lots of talk and time.

[Gage]

The motor pictured here, I sold for $11500

http://www.k20a.org/upload/SSC_0103.JPG

k24a block with 89mm sleeves, JE custom pistons 12.5:1 compression
6 speed tranny with LSD
IPS cams billet steel 8620 K2 mark2
RBC manifold from 2006 civic Si
k20a2 oil pump on k24a block
hondata kpro
axles
header
shifter+ shifter cables.

So as you see things add up..

I am in the process of building a few crate shortblocks, but these are for people that are mechanically inclined to be able to install a k20a head on them and attach a clutch and a tranny.
Good luck,
Nikos


Nikos, you need to tell us what the power output of that 11,50 motor is. :old: Inquiring minds..
And as an authority on Hondacura motors, what is the average power output of a bolt-on modded K20a2 or K24a2(vtc mod) with Kpro tuning? (everything but internal mods) If you would be so kind.

[nikos]

On the first run, that motor made 266whp to the wheels on a dynojet. It is limited by the fact that I was using a 2liter manifold, a 2 liter header, a 2liter throttle body and 2 liter cams on a 2.5L motor.

If you look at the dynograph, it is easy to see that the torque starts out with great potential and gets killed fast. Even though I knew they were restrictions on this motor, I had to see exactly what it made.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z302/landfalcon/2464ccMark2svs1998ccK2s.jpg

here;s the k24a vs a k20a2 with just the same cams, header, manifold, throttle body. Even though the peak power is not much only 20whp, the midrange difference in insane.

I am working on a similar motor now with appropriate header, bigger cams and big manifold with the addition of a ported head.

In other words, 266whp is around 300bhp so that should be enough for a light car but it can be more, a lot more... like 330 BHP with the right parts and tuning.

Realistically, a modded k20a2 with just cams and RBC manifold and a nice header is around 240 whp SAE corrected. Same with a TSX motor... The TSX will just have more torque.

So don't expect more than REAL 240whp out of a stock bottom k20a2 or k24a2

THere are more options, like superchargin a stock k24a motor that can be bought for around $1000.

Another thing to consider and please don't take this the wrong way is that if I have to spend 20k in R and D to come out with a good combination that will make 250whp under 4K cost, I would not be coming online and listing my modifications one by one for others to simply copy it. I would just brand it as Nikos spec motor for example and not reveal the small details that make all the difference.

Coating the pistons, the crank, the rods, changing the size of the bearings, the length of the intake piping, the size of the header, the lift and duration of the cams, the valvetrain, the size of the throttle body, the manifold all affect the motor.

There is no ONE COMBO that is best. Everything can be made to meet your goals... It is just of a question of budget and understanding that you can make up lost deficiencies with tuning.. And that is not just plugging in values on Kpro... Tunings as changing things on the motor. Don';t get too caught up on the k24a vs k20a arguement. If you are looking for best bang for the buck, you just have to do your research and decide.

In tenessee, are you involved with autocross at all? I have a friend with a nice MX-5 that I am trying to talk into for one of these RCR. His name is Brian Hatten in case you know him.

Take care

Nikos

[Gage]

Realistically, a modded k20a2 with just cams and RBC manifold and a nice header is around 240 whp SAE corrected. Same with a TSX motor... The TSX will just have more torque.

So don't expect more than REAL 240whp out of a stock bottom k20a2 or k24a2
In tenessee, are you involved with autocross at all? I have a friend with a nice MX-5 that I am trying to talk into for one of these RCR. His name is Brian Hatten in case you know him.

Take care

Nikos


Nikos, I think those numbers are incredible for a naturally aspirated number. Even the bolt on potential of the K series is impressive. 300hp GM Ecotec powered Ariel Atoms are putting down only 220 to 230whp on average, some lower. One guy modded his own up to 250whp.

I've hear of Brian but I haven't met him. I sold the Atom before I got involved in Autocross here. I regret that. I'll probably meet Brian sometime as I start attending AC events.

Thanks for the informative post.

[nikos]

250whp is nothing. The hard thing is to get 280-300 all motor.. It is possible but needs more money or a better understanding of these motors.

Were you one of the first to put down a deposit?

[Gage]

250whp is nothing. The hard thing is to get 280-300 all motor.. It is possible but needs more money or a better understanding of these motors.

Were you one of the first to put down a deposit?

No, I haven't put a deposit down yet. My wife and I made a bargain. Pay off a credit car before getting an SL-R. I also want to have all the driveline parts paid for cash.

I'm considering adding rods and pistons to the mix.

Does the block need to be machined on a low miles motor to insert aftermarket rods and pistons?

[Degeneerit]

Does the block need to be machined on a low miles motor to insert aftermarket rods and pistons?

You always overbore your cylinders by usually .02 or .04 to accept new pistons of .02 or .04 over stock. Not doing so can result in piston slap.

[Gage]

You always overbore your cylinders by usually .02 or .04 to accept new pistons of .02 or .04 over stock. Not doing so can result in piston slap.

Thanks D.

For some crazy reason I was imagining taking the oil pan and head off to pull at the rod and pistons and just push new ones in. Bad idea then.

Then in all likely hood I'll Rotrex the motor before I rebuild it with stronger internals... which was my original plan anyway. =0)

[nikos]

Most of the motors I do with stock sleeves, I go 87.5mm to make sure the new piston ring will seal right. Most stock 87mm cylinders will not accept another 87mm efficiently.

The rotrex is a good idea and I have been following the rotrex news in europe and USA. The base kit will be around $6500 for the k20a.. I just am not sure how well will it sell.

[Gage]

Most of the motors I do with stock sleeves, I go 87.5mm to make sure the new piston ring will seal right. Most stock 87mm cylinders will not accept another 87mm efficiently.

The rotrex is a good idea and I have been following the rotrex news in europe and USA. The base kit will be around $6500 for the k20a.. I just am not sure how well will it sell.

Yea. I'm certain the kit will be rediculously expensive. I have two problems though. I'm addicted to boost, and I love killer technology. Thus I am doomed to pay too much for results I might have for less money and less complication.

Although... the Rotrex kit (which I have seen in person installed on a K20) is remarkably simple in form and function.

[Nikolai]

Thanks for the input Nikos. Couple of questions.

1. What components does one need to use KPro on the 05-06 K20z1 motors? It's not clear to me from Hondata's website.

2. Any benefits using the 02-04 k20a2 motor over the 05-06 k20z1?

3. Which trannies are available with LSD and will easily mate to the afore-mentioned motors?

If I go with used parts (and don't get burned there), at this point, I'm thinking I can do my whole k20 drivetrain for about $8,500 and get about 260-270whp.

[nikos]

Thanks for the input Nikos. Couple of questions.

1. What components does one need to use KPro on the 05-06 K20z1 motors? It's not clear to me from Hondata's website.

2. Any benefits using the 02-04 k20a2 motor over the 05-06 k20z1?

3. Which trannies are available with LSD and will easily mate to the afore-mentioned motors?

If I go with used parts (and don't get burned there), at this point, I'm thinking I can do my whole k20 drivetrain for about $8,500 and get about 260-270whp.

1. To use the k20z1 motor you need a 02-04 harness or a k20z1 harness and a jumper harness that hondata sells to mate the kpro with the z1 harness.

Please nota that because the speed signal on the z1 is digital, you will only be able to read speed with a converted digistal s2000 cluster or a custom wired cluster using rsx components etc...

2)No benefits. The z1 motors are a little bit stronger stock, not much though.. Just better cams really

3)you could use the
02-04 rsx s tranny 6 speed
02-04 rsx base tranny 5 speed
02-05 civic si 5 speed
05-60 rsx
06 si LSD
japanese k20 R LSD 6 speed

you can buy an LSD for $700 from an american honda dealer and get it installed

you can get a quiafe for $900

or a OBX LSD that is a copy for $450 but needs to be broken apart and retorqued to spec.

All these trannies will fit, including the manual accord trannies but the mounting position is a little bit different.

The only trannies with the same mounting positions are all the RSX no matter the year, the Civic Si, no matter the year. The TSX and ACCORD tranny case have the holes in a different position.

We used to be able to get the k20a R LSD Trannies from Japan new, but they don;t make them anymore for the old k20a motor.

[Gage]

Isn't it great to have someone around who really knows what they are talking about?

[Nikolai]

I'm going with a 2006 K24A2 from an Acura TSX myself. It sits in my garage. But those V6 guys are really tempting me. Grin

Do we know for sure that the K24, with its ~ 15mm higher profile than the K20 (99mm stroke vs 86mm stroke), will fit comfortably in the SL-R frame? From the few pictures I've seen, it looks like the head of whatever motor is installed comes pretty close to the cross braces.

[Gage]

Do we know for sure that the K24, with its ~ 15mm higher profile than the K20 (99mm stroke vs 86mm stroke), will fit comfortably in the SL-R frame? From the few pictures I've seen, it looks like the head of whatever motor is installed comes pretty close to the cross braces.

Nikolai, The way Fran has explained it to me on the phone... He will build the frame around nearly any FWD transverse platform within reason. The RCR SL-R is more flexible than a "you take whatever we give you" type company.
I think Fran is looking for us to find great platforms that will make the SL-R live. RCR will probably end up with several chassi options if we discover the practicality of more than one engine type. In other words, if someone proves a FWD V6 can work, sends one to Fran, it fits... and it makes a fantastic exocar... than a hit is born.

[Gage]

Just to clarify that..

I have absolutely no doubt the K24A2 will fit. Never had any.

Its the big V-6's that there might be a question over...

[Fran Hall RCR]

To be honest the V6 package will be an extremely tight fit ...if it even fits at all.

We dropped in the SRT-4 drivetrain today and made a few chassis tweeks....

Our new Honda package will be arriving very shortly and then its all systems go...
Honda
SRT-4
Ecotec
All finalised and ready to roll.....and a cage too.....

I cant see that orderly line forming yet......I guess I had better go back to building high end mid engined cars......:awais:

[Karlo]

I cant see that orderly line forming yet......I guess I had better go back to building high end mid engined cars......:awais:

I think Fran 95% percent of the buyers are waiting for some "real" pictures :whistle: In Due time I know.

[Fran Hall RCR]

Jeez...you guys are demanding...

I thought performance first and looks second....:coolnana:

[Degeneerit]

After everything that has been done there has to be at least one completed slr. If so why are there still no pictures of the body panels on the chassis?:shurg::bday:

[Karlo]

Degeneerit

You must have missed this pic?:D:D:D

http://www.exocars.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=169&d=1204684159

[aloysius]

I think Fran 95% percent of the buyers are waiting for some "real" pictures :whistle: In Due time I know.

Maybe someone at Knott's Berry will take some.

[StatGSR]

my vote certainly goes for a k20, but i do like that your having options avaliable. i personaly think when brammo dropped the k20 from the atom line up, they killed the car.


i dont know what you have been trying to do with suppliers but i can certainty recommend hmotorsonline.com for being the one of if not the best motor supplier in the honda world, i know of several people personaly that have had great experiances with them even when something turned out wrong with the motor.

[Fran Hall RCR]

The issue is cost....there are many suppliers but the pricing in the $13k rage for a drivetrain is out of the question for most SL-R customers....also the issue of timely and repeatable supply seems to be a hurdle for the guys we have spoken with....

I dont supply engines but I was trying to put together a supplier willing to work independently with RCR customers.....

Most seem to expect me to purchase a volume of engines and hold their stock for them.....

It defeats the whole premise of a budget build package and freedom of expression.

That is not to say that if someone came along and offered a great deal to me , I would not jump on it....so long as its advantagous to my customers first and foremost

[Karlo]

Maybe someone at Knott's Berry will take some.


I will be taking lots pictures and video at Knotts :thumb2:

[absmith]

This may not be popular and would definitely be overkill but an LS1 (etc) mated to the F40 six speed from the Pontiac G6 sounds interesting. There seem to be a few Fieros running this setup with success. It appears this combo may be pieced together for about the same $$$ as the other drivetrain options discussed.

Like I said above, this would or could be tremendous overkill but isn't that what these cars are all about? I think the Superlite Roadster looks better than the Deronda and this combo would eliminate the expensive Porsche transaxle. Any thoughts?

[Karlo]

absmith

Any pics of that LS1 setup?

[absmith]

Here is an LS7 Fiero I've been keeping an eye on: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=886893 This build is obviously high dollar but an aluminum 5.3 and an F40 (Ebay $300-$400) plus the trans adapter could be an interesting option.

[Gage]

Okay. Wow.

I am impressed.

[matthew_turner]

It sounds like I might be on the smaller end here of who would like it but I think it would great to put a Ford/Mazda engine in it.

First-Taurus SHO Can you imagine seeing that sweet engine in there (Shogun!). Only problem is there are not a ton around.

Second-2.3 liter, granted it is RWD but check out the turbo Pinto and other cars people have been put it in or stock. Can you say cheap and see you later:awais:. If nothing else check youtube or hotrod magazine.

Third-Focus motor, SVT if you can afford it, when I say afford I am still talking way cheaper then what I have seen posted. I mean when you can get a regular Focus a couple grand and sell the spare parts when you are done and have barely paid anything. Not sure that they still offer it, I would have to check but I think the complete crate from Ford Racing was pretty cheap.

But it seems by most of the comments, it is not so much of a cost thing for people here, although it would seem to me that Fran is after the crowd that wants a toy and can keep the final cost somewhere below $20-25,000:clap:.

Just my two cents-hope that it will be able to be done when I a ready to buy or I would have to skip out (love the looks), I just don’t care so much for the other engines mentioned.

Cannot wait to see it, hopefully in-person!

[Craig – Absolute PACE]

Mathew I certainly can see where you are headed and they are good options. I think there will be a lot of people that would want to do a budget build and that's certainly the market that Fran wants to accomodate.

I can see guys buying complete wrecks here to get the parts required and selling the rest. Like you say, it would be the cheapest way, more time consuming and space consuming, but should work out cheaper.

In Australia I am doing my best to offer the best value drivetrains and for us the best value & most suitable performance drivetrain is the Mitsubishi 4G63T.

The late model Aus Ecotec are also looking like an option where we have stricter emissions. But I'm still busy researching options here. We also have some local Honda K20a & K24A engines, but they are not common.

I've also looked at the Ford Duratec engines. Standard engines are 2lt, but our Ford Focus sports model here comes with a 2.5lt Turbo Duratec 5 cyl with 6 speed box. Very nice.

I can see why the guys on this forum love the Honda's, they really are perfectly suited to the SL-R and fit perfectly, but the Honda is for the people with slightly larger budgets unless you come across a bargain.

In reality you can use any drivetrain you like, I even have people here in Aus that are looking at the Ecotec 1.9lt Turbo Diesels.

[B_OBrien]

The torque / hp and the pricing on the SRT4 are sure nice!

Power: SAE 215 hp (160 kW) (2003 model),
230 hp (170 kW) (2004-2005 models)

Torque: 245 lb·ft (332 N·m) @ 2400-4400 rpm (2003 model),
250 lb·ft (339 N·m) @ 2400-4400 rpm (2004-2005 models)

The 2003 models did not have the updated injectors that come with the mopar stage 1 upgrade.

Torque seems a bit low on the Honda K engines at around 150-160 Ft Lbs. I will be interested to see how fast the SLR's with the K engines are.

The SRT4 is not the prettiest of engines. Especially considering how visible the engine in the SLR will be.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DODGE-PT-CRUISER-NEON-TURBO-SRT4-ENGINE-TRANS-SWAP-13K_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247 QQcategoryZ33615QQihZ021QQitemZ310045367130

I wonder if it is possible to re do some of the hoses / wiring to "de-clutter" the look of the engine.

[Karlo]

"I wonder if it is possible to re do some of the hoses / wiring to "de-clutter" the look of the engine."

Welcome

Anything is possible if you throw a lot of money at it. More than likely you can tidy it with some bling.

[Conquest351]

I'm aiming heavily at the SRT4 drivetrain from either the Neon or the Caliber. The Caliber actually comes with a 6-speed transaxle and larger intercooler too. Anyway, I was also thinking about the GM Ecotec engine, but the turbocharged model that's in the Solstice GXP and Sky Redline. 2.0L DOHC all aluminum, direct injected, monster. Just needs a turbo upgrade in my opinion and there ya go. They're rated at what, 265 hp from the factory? Not hard to make that over 400 with turbo and injector upgrades. Then a stand alone ECU and ported head and there ya go. I haven't checked into aftermarket cam availability, but that would be a plus. Anyway, there are lots of options, I'm glad Fran is looking out for us.

Laters,

Brian

[StatGSR]

^ u forget that injector-tuning upgrades are not easy things to do when dealing with direct injection motors.

[Conquest351]

^ u forget that injector-tuning upgrades are not easy things to do when dealing with direct injection motors.

I'm actually looking at doing a direct injected CNG engine. Swapping the gasoline injectors to CNG injectors.

More boost + more octane + more compression = MORE POWER

I'm doing some research on it at the moment. I'll fill you in once I find everything out, but what I've found so far is this...

You need a high compression engine to take advantage of the propane, diesels work wonderfully. If you don't want to run that much NA compression, add a turbo or supercharger for artificial mechanical compression (me being fancy). You're going to run high boost levels, but since the CNG is cold, your pre-combustion charge won't be insanely hot. Therefore you're not overheating the engine. I guess... I could be going the wrong direction in that line of thinking though. BUT anyways, CNG is 130 octane. The potential energy is through the roof. You only need a small amount injected into the chamber for combustion. Engine wear and fouling is minimal at most. To put it mildly, this would be the ultimate fuel source, if it were widely available.

Laters,

Brian

[Chadillac]

I've done a little bit of research on CNG cars, since I have a friend in Utah who drives a CNG converted car. You do have to do quite a bit of work to convert the car and it can be quite expensive. The gas tanks have to be pressurized and don't hold as much. However, in some states you can get tax write-offs if you convert your car. In Utah it's $3000. And CNG down there is $0.64 a gallon! He's got a Ford 4.6 V-8 and he claims he has less power and a little bit less gas mileage, but I've heard if your engine uses force induction output should increase if properly tuned for CNG.

[Conquest351]

I've done a little bit of research on CNG cars, since I have a friend in Utah who drives a CNG converted car. You do have to do quite a bit of work to convert the car and it can be quite expensive. The gas tanks have to be pressurized and don't hold as much. However, in some states you can get tax write-offs if you convert your car. In Utah it's $3000. And CNG down there is $0.64 a gallon! He's got a Ford 4.6 V-8 and he claims he has less power and a little bit less gas mileage, but I've heard if your engine uses force induction output should increase if properly tuned for CNG.

Yeah, CNG needs compression. Either mechanical or artificial mechanical (engine compression with piston to head or with supercharger/turbocharger). That's why it's so awesome in diesel engines and they looooove it. Build a gasoline based engine to about 12:1 compression and throw some good boost (30+ lbs) on it and you'll be fine!!

[Chadillac]

So Conquest, are you planning on converting to CNG for the extra power or for the cheaper gas? It just seems to me that if you wanted the extra power there are much cheaper alternatives and the cost to convert the car to CNG will offset any savings with the cheaper gas.

[RedLead550]

I'm surprised no one seems to be talking about a Subaru motor. Being a flat motor it should give a lower center of gravity and you can get a lot of power out of them. I build a Beck 550 Spyder 7 years ago but am itching for something new. The big thing going in Spyder's now is the Subaru motors. So anyone know if there's a fit issue or any other problems with that setup?

Thanks for any replys!

Bert

[Conquest351]

Subaru motor will not fit in the SLR, only in the SLC. Too big. LOL Actually what I've been looking at is the new Ecotec engine from Chevy that they're using in the 2008 Cobalt SS that's now TURBOCHARGED!! Direct injected turbocharged goodness!! Talking with a company right now on gaseous fuel injector replacements for that. Thinking of running Hydrogen... Check out this link and see what you think...

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/paddock/25413-out-box-thinking.html

[RedLead550]

Sounds like an interesting motor. I'd like to get 300+HP just because you never have enough, within some reasonable cost.

[Craig – Absolute PACE]

In my opinion the easiest and cheapest way to get 300+ HP reliably is to use a 1st gen Mitsubishi 4G63T.

I've just been offered a brand new stroker engine that is rated at 700HP for AU$4k. Would that be enough HP. :D

But seriously, there are just so many go-fast parts available both new and 2nd hand for the 4G63 and just so much knowledge and expertise.

So far we have customers here in Australia using both the Honda K24/6 speed & 4G63T. If you want a real sweet, fun combo then go with Honda K20 & K24. If you want serious HP, then the 4G63T is the engine. I feel these two will be the main choices here, but with so many attractive engines available, we are really spoilt for choice.

[RedLead550]

Thanks Craig. Yep I've seen quite a few Mitsu's autocrossing and it's really an amazing combination. The car's have a LOT of sway in them but they can really scoot around the courses and not spin. HUGE wast gate dumps too, you can really hear the woosh out of them. Probably a good choice so who knows the general weight choice of each engine? I've read a few numbers around on this board but...

P.S. Seems like a good group here that wants to be helpful which is really how it is on the Spyderclub.com site which helped a great deal in my build.

[Craig – Absolute PACE]

Yeah, I would love to compile all the engine, well actually the whole drivetrain weight as that would be very interesting and very important factor in performance of the SL-R. Just a turbo or supercharger setup adds much more weight than I would like.

[Karlo]

I'm surprised no one seems to be talking about a Subaru motor. Being a flat motor it should give a lower center of gravity and you can get a lot of power out of them. I build a Beck 550 Spyder 7 years ago but am itching for something new. The big thing going in Spyder's now is the Subaru motors. So anyone know if there's a fit issue or any other problems with that setup?

Thanks for any replys!

Bert

I too think the Subaru would be great setup. Any links that show the Subaru setup in a Spyder?

[RedLead550]

Hi Karlo, I do think SpyderClub has quite a few pictures. Here's one recent post that has a turbo motor in it - http://www.spyderclub.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10909&highlight=subaru and another one here, check the 2nd page - http://www.spyderclub.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10405&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=subaru&start=13

[Craig – Absolute PACE]

Unfortunately the Subaru engine/gearbox setups are just too large for the SL-R.

If it fitted, the Subaru would be a fantastic choice.

[soon_2b_evil]

how are they axles going to work out?

[Steve Jarvis]

I had thought about the Audi 2.7 liter 5 valve per cylinder twin turbo V6 mouted to the fwd A4 trans, but I guess it won't fit.

I know it's an estremely short package and it would be cool to have a logitudinal setup.

Later, Steve

[Chadillac]

The Audi 2.7 Bi-Turbo engine would be an excellent choice (if it fit). I used to drive a 2001 Audi S4 and loved that engine. The weak points were the turbos and some of the turbo plumbing but everything else was rock solid.

There is the VW 1.8 turbo which is pretty much 2/3 of the Audi 2.7 TT. They also have that new direct injection 2.0 turbo which would work really nice. I think VW does a really good job on minimizing turbo lag on their engines.

[Steve Jarvis]

I also had a 2001 S4 and the main problem was the tiny turbos. A switch to a single larger turbo would be a must and you could fabricate the pipes to locate the turbo appropriately for the SLR.

I believe the 1.8 would be a tighter fit, since it's longer than the V6.

Later, Steve

[1fastredsc]

Has anyone thought about sticking a motorcycle engine in it. Some of these 1000cc engines are putting down 150-180hp. Plus you have the sequential transmission with the engine all in a light weight package. Something to think about for the track junkies here.

[Karlo]

Yeh the VSTORM will have the Busa setup.

[1fastredsc]

I meant the SLR.

[Craig – Absolute PACE]

Sorry no plans that I know of for a Bike engine option for the SL-R.

Choice of 4 x car engines and electric option is what we are running with at the moment.

But there is nothing stopping someone doing one. :coolnana: