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Karlo
02-24-2008, 10:22 AM
I do not know if there is any truth to the article but lets discuss?


With contributions by Ed Martinez - Performance Solutions Engineering and inserts by James Walker, Jr.

Let's look at some common rotor "modification" and "performance" upgrades that you may have been exposed to and try to separate the marketing from the engineering. We'll start with size. Bigger isn't always better.

Brake Rotor Size

Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool. Bigger rotors look ***y. But bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes - which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other parts of the braking system. Take, for example, an F500 racecar - a small 800 pound single seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3,000 pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, swapping on a GT1 brake package would probably do more harm than good - that's a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the "go" pedal is pushed. So, the moral of this story is “Bigger is better until your temperatures are under control.” After that point, you are doing more harm than good...unless you really like the look.

Cross-Drilling

Cross-drilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads that are 50 to 60 years old, not a whole lot. Rotors were first “drilled” because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures - a process known as “gassing out”. These gasses then formed a thin layer between the brake pad face and the rotor, acting as a lubricant and effectively lowering the coefficient of friction. The holes were implemented to give the gasses somewhere to go. It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the same gassing out phenomenon as the early pads.


A standard cross-drilled brake rotor.

For this reason, the holes have carried over more as a design and lightening feature than a performance feature. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lower temperatures. In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, the temperatures can actually increase. The holes can actually create stress risers, allowing the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads - sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it.


A cracked, cross-drilled rotor. Risk versus reward, baby!

The one glaring exception here is in the rare situation where the rotors are so oversized (look at any performance motorcycle or lighter formula car) that the rotors are drilled like Swiss cheese. While the issues of stress risers and brake pad wear are still present, these racing teams are replacing brake pads on a much more frequent basis - sometimes every race weekend. Drilling is used to reduce the mass of the rotor in spite of these concerns. (Remember – nothing comes for free. If these teams switched to non-drilled rotors, they would see lower operating temperatures and longer brake pad life - at the expense of higher weight. It's all about trade-offs.)

Slotting

Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time. This, in turn, helps to reduce the “glazing” often found during high-speed use, which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?)


By comparison, a slotted rotor.

Cryogenically Treating

Last year a top race team bought 4 rotors. Two were bone stock, and two were subjected to a process know as Cryogenically Treating - one of the high-tech buzzwords floating around the paddock. The rotors were run back-to-back on the same track on the same car on the same day with temperatures taken to make sure that they saw the same level of heat. Following the track session, the parts were removed and we had them literally dissected by a materials lab.

The testing conducted included surface hardness, grain structure analysis, density, and surface scanning with an electron microscope. Guess what - after seeing the heat of use, the rotors looked identical in every regard. This is not to say that there is not a benefit from treating other parts that see lower temperatures and/or have different material properties. However, treating the rotors on the racecar showed no tangible benefits (note that it didn't seem to hurt anything either). Come to your own conclusions…

Conclusion

So, what's the secret recipe? Again, there is no absolute right or wrong answer. Like most modifications, there are those that appear to be well founded and those that “look cool.” If ultimate thermal performance is your goal, look to what the top teams are running (relatively large, slotted rotors). However, if “image” is your thing, break out the drill press – and be prepared to replace your brake pads on a regular basis.

AZDave
05-31-2008, 06:51 AM
Brake Rotor Size

Bigger rotors will make your friends think you are cool. Bigger rotors look ***y. But bigger rotors do not stop the car. What a bigger rotor will do is lower the overall operating temperature of the brakes - which is a GREAT idea IF your temperatures are causing problems with other parts of the braking system. Take, for example, an F500 racecar - a small 800 pound single seat formula car. While the brakes are certainly much smaller than those found on a 3,000 pound GT1 Camaro, that does not necessarily mean that they need to be made larger. In fact, swapping on a GT1 brake package would probably do more harm than good - that's a lot of steel hanging on the wheel that needs to accelerate each time the "go" pedal is pushed. So, the moral of this story is “Bigger is better until your temperatures are under control.” After that point, you are doing more harm than good...unless you really like the look.

Bigger brakes not only keep tempurates lower but they also STOP the car. Leverage alone dictates it will take less effort to stop the wheel. And they look cool also :D

As far as cross drilling?? Brembo still cross drills their rotors on all their big brake kits. And I have seen alot of rotors cross drilled and slotted. The rotors on my ferrari's brake kit are drilled and vented. With so many variations it'll be interesting to get some feedback on this.

StatGSR
05-31-2008, 02:38 PM
^ your also forgetting that larger rotors increase the rotational mass meaning more force is guna be needed to stop them anyway. not to mention oversized brakes WILL make your car slower under acceleration.

cheapracer
11-04-2008, 11:33 PM
Think about it this way - we are here to build Exo cars and some of us will use a donor car/engine of a weight at least 1000kgs. Now our Exo should be in the 500kgs area so why would anyone think that anything other than the standard rotors for that car/engine wouldn't be good enough? Your never going to put 3 kids, a dog and luggage in the boot either adding another 400kgs which the cars brake system was designed to handle. If you need to go racing those rotors will still be fine for a track day car with the correct pads which are a more important consideration.

Performance brakes are overated (and power sapping as noted above) for what most of us really do with our cars but theres no doubt large drilled rotors do look very s'exy - but hey, you can buy those s'exy looking fake drilled rotors that squeeze in behind the wheels.

Goin South
11-05-2008, 10:06 PM
Ok kids, time for a little math. The energy of an object moving in a straight line is a linear function of its mass and a function of its speed squared; e=.5mv^2. Double the mass, double the energy. Double the speed and you quadruple the energy. Your brakes get rid of that energy. A 4300 lb car going 75 mph has about as much energy as a 1330 lb car going 135 mph. Have you ever seen the brake rotors glowing on a race car? Lots of heat; high temperatures. Comes from going FAST.

You will probably never have your fully loaded Camry up to 75mph and need to panic stop more than once, but you will likely have your track car well over 100 mph several times per lap for many laps at a time.

So not only do you want the added brake torque of a larger rotor and a large, multi piston caliper, but you want the energy capture and dissipation capabilities of the larger rotor. The added weight penalty is paltry. If you’re ok with going around a track at speed with dinky little rotors and family sedan calipers, be sure to do it at a track with plenty of run off areas. And with the money you saved you can buy better health insurance.

cheapracer
11-07-2008, 02:34 AM
Goin South, really not here for a contest, everything that you say is true and I truly hope that if people can afford it please, I urge you as well, get the best quality brakes on it you can.

Now theres also a real world out there with budget concious people and some other facts to support that world. I'll give you some examples -

Works Ford RS1800 rally Escorts of the 70's and 80's that weighed 1050kgs never ran more than 13" wheels with paltry standard sized vented cast iron discs inside them, they won WRC and many WRC rounds (and still win to this day at club and historic level) going down hairpin European mountain roads for hours on end.

Now we have races for production cars such as the Nurb 24 hour, Bathurst 12 hour (Camry's stopping from 120mph at Castrol Chase every 3 minutes) and many others I could and can name - all done reliably with "dinky little (cast iron) rotors and family sedan calipers" including those Camry's from 120mph. Brake pads and fluids are the critical key to achieving this performance.

There are more people world wide in spades running standard cars/brakes on track days and club days than racing cars and they simply aren't having troubles - again not to say they wouldn't be better off and faster with what you have put forward.

I'm presuming a number of people that visit this forum are budget consious home builders and I am happy to help them along if I can, the people who can afford Atoms etc. don't need your info, as true as it is, they simply buy it.

Would I trust 1500kg Camry brakes on my 600kg home built, the same ones that stop from 120 mph at Bathurst every 3 minutes without any problems? Why wouldn't I? It's also math and it's just darn logical to boot.

What I worry about from post's such as yours (with all due respect to it's validity) is that you scare some people away from having a go at their own build because they believe that items such as steel rotors are out of their reach finacially - hope you understand where i'm coming from.

pook
11-01-2009, 09:41 AM
OK, I have both a statement and a question on this topic and need some help.
First some background, I have two customers (racers) that run mid 80's Porsche's and have moved from weekend DE racers to pretty serious licenced racers and as they and their cars have evolved the brake issues are getting....well scary!
They are baking the seals out of their calipers, this size rotor/caliper was one of the smallest ever installed on a 911, but the class rules say they can not upgrade the brakes??? anyway this caliper/rotor combo was deemed as adequate and safe by Porsche for their street car but obviously not up to the task of tracking. mind you both cars have shed much weight and gained very little actual HP.
So my statement is don't expect passenger car brakes to hold up in track condition, I believe most are the minimum that the manufactures can get away with for reasons of weight or money or both!
I was also under the impression that drilled rotors dissipate heat faster because of the various edges much like a motorcycle cylinder/head did back when they were air cooled (the more fins or edges the easier the heat transfer) ???
OK, now to my question.
The heat I believe is greater because of the small friction area of the pad and the fact it has no where to go besides transferring to the piston, but here is the weird part, I have tried all methods of cooling, pad compounds, etc..and even tried Titanium shims between the pad and piston with little to no effect? why is it the seals can cook but the fluid not boil?
Is there something I'm missing? maybe a coating or a company that makes high temp seals, unobtanium pistons?
Thanks for any help guy's
PooK