Mongrel Motorworks

[cheapracer]

An Atom inspired (not a copy) Exo Car coming you way soon AT the right price - $affordable!

Hi Guys :-)

I would like to introduce my Company to you and this is of course possible through the gracious great work of those involved with this forum of whom I only know Karlo - if there are others, thanks!

I am an Australian residing in China for some time developing cars and my Company name is Mongrel Motorworks.

Throughout my life I have been involved in many race and rally car projects and race/rally car teams and built quite a number of race and rally cars and now I am developing cars in Sichuan Province, China and currently have some projects in design stage with 2 prototypes actually being built (and an electric city car being built but maybe 40kmh isn’t your scene though, possibly ZX1400 engines later! :D ).

Firstly the aim of Mongrel Motorworks is to bring affordable motorsports to the masses (see my name!) and the Exo car will be no exception. My exo car will not compare to an Ariel, I work at the other end and you won't find any carbon fibre, Ti or magnesium on my cars, simply put you will get what you pay for - a high quantity of OEM parts cleverly mixed with experienced, sound sports car engineering. When I say the other end, of course I am refering to price not quality :thumb2:

Of interest to most of you here of course is project No. 2, the Exo car so I will give you some details.

Some specs because you just have to know!

Engine: Toyota 4AFE 7 rib block with 5 speed gear box - 2nd gen spec 84kw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4A-GE#4A-G_.2816-valve.29
WB: 95"
Track: 65"
Width: 71" with 205 series tyres.
Weight: 450kgs target.

I have a supply locked in for the 1.6 engines but am currently negotiating for the well known 2 litre Ford Zetec unit. The engine chassis area is purposely being left reasonably open for people to make many other choices of thier own.

There are some pictures of the beast in it’s “being roughed out” stages here and since they will be for sale you are quite welcome to post impressions or suggestions along the way – I have very thick skin!

Remember, this is basic layout time only, nothing set in stone yet!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cheapracer


Regards,
Cheapracer
Mongrel Motorworks.

[Karlo]

Welcome Mark!

[Karlo]

Here are the spy pics, posted here for all to see.

[cheapracer]

Wow thats fast work Karlo!

Thanks again for your great forum!

Mark :-)

[cheapracer]

Things are pushing along nicely, getting some suspension sorted and some frame bracing, you know those boring but required stuff! Hope to get some more pics up the next few days!

[cheapracer]

Some pictures from the weekend, just progress getting some measurments corrected and some pickup points for varioius things - again not all tubes you see will remain, just handy for mounting things etc.

www.flickr.com/cheapracer

[cordycord]

Hey Mark,

Good work. I see an earlier prototype frame sitting on its side--you've already come a long way. What do you think is a realistic time frame for a rolling chassis?

[Karlo]

Pictures

[cheapracer]

Hey Mark,

Good work. I see an earlier prototype frame sitting on its side--you've already come a long way. What do you think is a realistic time frame for a rolling chassis?

Thats an old proto for another project and that frame wasn't suitable for various reasons and has been sitting around for a couple of years in case I figure out 1 day what I can use it for :-) Theres a few roughed out frames sitting outside my room some are useful.

I shot a few pics today with uprights and wheels on to get a better visual perspective. I could make a roller by next week but I'm still paying attention to production issues so often I take 1 step forward and 2 backwards! What you can't see is semi finished items like the scuttle/firewall is already designed (in rough steel buck stage waiting to make mould) along with steering column, steering rack is finished in prototype stage and suspension design is mostly finished but again in proto stage - some of these items will be revised for sure but having something to work with/from is far better than having thin air.

Production is so different to 1 off's and these last few years have been interesting as well as frustrating while I learn about the issues involved.

Thanks again Karlo :-)

[cordycord]

I know what you mean about prototyping verses production. They are two different animals. I feel that there is a real opportunity for weight savings by going to partial aluminum sandwich construction. If the frame were built off a basic sheet of honeycomb aluminum, rigidity would go up and weight down. Just a thought.

[cheapracer]

I know what you mean about prototyping verses production. They are two different animals. I feel that there is a real opportunity for weight savings by going to partial aluminum sandwich construction. If the frame were built off a basic sheet of honeycomb aluminum, rigidity would go up and weight down. Just a thought.


I have an aluminium option for the frame but just replicated in tube form, I think it's only a gimick really, by the time you get the desired thickness the weight saving isn't really worth the extra effort. Looks nice though and a good talking point over a beer.

My plan is to offer something very cheap and a leg into the market first then have a look at 'upgrades' - theres plenty of expensive cars out there to choose from but the other end has slim pickings.

[cordycord]

I didn't mean actually going to an aluminum frame, but rather using an aluminum honeycomb as the floor structure (base). Of course going pure tube would be less expensive, but if you've got to make a floor anyway, you might as well make it honeycomb. :) The rest of the tubing structure could be simplified or made with thinner wall because of the strength of the honeycomb floor.

[cheapracer]

I understand where your coming from but the twin spars are the strength and everything hangs off them as in the Atom (which virtually has no floor frame) and mine.

I really don't know where to buy aluminium honeycomb here either and I pretty well know the paranoid Goverment here would prick their ears up at a foreigner asking about any aerospace items.

[fuoriserie]

Very interesting project and I'm looking forward to more pictures of your prototype.

Cheers
Italo

[cheapracer]

Very interesting project and I'm looking forward to more pictures of your prototype.

Cheers
Italo

Thanks Mate, encouragement always warms the soul :-)

It's further advanced than the pictures suggest as many components are coming direct from another project thats half a year in front of this one. Anyway, another shot taken on the same day.

[Karlo]

"Target price 10 - 12K USD coming soon to your Bat Station"

Mark

What is included with the price above?

[Gage]

"Target price 10 - 12K USD coming soon to your Bat Station"

Mark

What is included with the price above?

Before over seas shipping right? :spin:

[cheapracer]

Wow your fast!

Thats for a basic running, drivable 1.6 car. Of course many details are being sorted out and I had planned to market below 10K before things started to change such as the Chinese RMB dropping from 7.5:1 USD 1 year ago to todays 6.8:1.

I expect not everyone will want an engine as they can buy their own 2nd hand locally and save a bit or bolt in a (Toyota) 4AGE 16 or 20 valver or the 4AZE supercharged motor. I'm in talks at the moment for Ford 2.0 Zetecs (last model) which may add a thousand, let you know how it turns out.

Those prices should allow people to upgrade/modify as they see fit or just enjoy as it is, not everyone immediately wants to go racing or track days. I will offer some performance upgrades later.

[Gage]

I like your price point. It makes me second guess my decision to pick up welding skills. :D

Ford is going out of business in short order. Anyone see the bank stock recommendations?

I do however have a 2.4 liter Honda K24 sitting in my Garage. =0)

Honda has an excellent reputation and much more tuning support here.

Feel free to correct or supplement that information anyone.

[cheapracer]

Before over seas shipping right? :spin:


Before I had actually figured it in but now lets just see what happens with the market and how many I can get into 1 container. The strenthening RMB actually makes the shipping cheaper when using a US shipping agent.

Of interest, Australian law dictates that a vehicle without wheels and axles isn't a vehicle and doesn't atract the vehicle duty at Customs. Therefore you have to fit as many chassis in 1 container as you can and then put all the wheels and drivetrains in another container and pay someone to transport and assemble them. Theres lots of investigation to do for various countries and even the states/provinces/counties within those countries.

[Karlo]

Shipping them as car parts is key, as you kinda mentioned.

[cheapracer]

I like your price point. It makes me second guess my decision to pick up welding skills. :D

Ford is going out of business in short order. Anyone see the bank stock recommendations?

I do however have a 2.4 liter Honda K24 sitting in my Garage. =0)

Honda has an excellent reputation and much more tuning support here.

Feel free to correct or supplement that information anyone.

The bare frame with suspension and bodywork will be cheaper than Atoms oval tube A-arm option!

Oh I just remembered, my main tubes are actually oval by the way, visually makes the spar tubes look bigger and is stronger in load. I have positioned the triangulation tubes so the 3rd from the front also act as hand grabs - I don't believe you can do this in an Atom(?)

Ford may be going out of business but the engines are made under licence here by a non Ford company, may even reduce the price when they have no-one to pay royalties to anymore :)

The engine bay is very adaptable, square and open on purpose for expected self transplants.

[cordycord]

I understand where your coming from but the twin spars are the strength and everything hangs off them as in the Atom (which virtually has no floor frame) and mine.

I really don't know where to buy aluminium honeycomb here either and I pretty well know the paranoid Goverment here would prick their ears up at a foreigner asking about any aerospace items.

You've got a point about government "intervention". That's the one bright point about making in USA--we've got honeycomb suppliers all over the place. China has a tendency to have all the same product made all in the same city.

[cheapracer]

.
Gabe Warfield has done this great render of his Exo more suitable to my chassis. Gives me some more ideas how to improve the looks further as well such as the roll bar shape and height - well done Gabe!!


Picture in next post!

[cheapracer]

Try the picture again!

.

[Karlo]

Simple design, yet striking :thumb2:

[cheapracer]

Not over yet! Thanks for the encouragement :-)

[cheapracer]

Heres something funny, walked out the back of the Fibreglass Co. I develop models with, turned a corner and they have galvanising, anodising, soft and hard chrome and powder coating facilities, you could have knocked me over with a feather!

Only been going there for the last year - I really got to learn more Chinese!!

So I will probably gal my frames before powder coating and lots of nice gold anodised parts - my Mate didn't believe me that you can get anodising done in red, blue, green etc. in the West!

[cordycord]

Now THAT's something that you don't find every day in California--it's impossible to start any business with toxic chemicals or odors in California, unless it's been "grandfathered" in. Even then, a yearly visit from the fire and health inspector starts to feel like government harrassment after a while. When anodizing, I've found that gold, black and hard anodized colors hold up best, while blue and red fade quickly.

Keep up the good work!

[cheapracer]

Yeah when I was in Oz a few years back it was getting hard to find a chromer - the local councils close them down because the enviro laws/safety standards are just too expensive to meet. They don't ban them, they just make it economically an unsound prospect.

[cheapracer]

Playing with a few things such as getting a buck finalised for the firewall and front floorpan area and just playing with some ideas at the rear of the chassis.

[cheapracer]

Well I'm happy to say I got a wheelbarrow now (a front roller)! Got pedals, steering column, steering rack master cylinder, suspension etc. all mocked up.

Start on the rear tomorrow, I am leaning towards a DiDion tube.

Going well, happy that besides the obvious and the featured curved Exo Skeleton side spars, a large majority of my chassis is based around 2D cuts, a few holes and only 4 simple fish mouths. Very little in the way of brackets, tags or other fiddly, time consuming rubbish.

The extra time and effort spent to make a production simple chassis (the work/education started last year on a previous project) is something I didn't expect but looks like it's going to pay off in the long run. My respect for car engineers in companies such as Hyundai has increased tremendously now I know how smart you have to be to make a cheap car and I undestand more about those legendary stories about car companies not wanting to spend an extra 20 cents on this and that .....

[CMC#5]

Why the de dion arrangement and what is your scheme for lateral location?

[cheapracer]

DiDion makes life easier for various engine decisions, keeps both tyres flat on the road, limited to no migration of roll center, roll center height can be easily adjustable, small unsprung weight penalty.

Lateral - still considering, I'm not a big Watts fan although I could use a horizontal Watts on a DiDion, I have no restrictions for a very long Panhard giving little side scrub and I am considering a Mumford. Twin trailing V-arms could give me a longer roll line but not so easy to engineer into the space available.

Ahh, decisions, decisions!

[CMC#5]

No arguments about it making life easier on the design front, but it might make it harder on the marketing front, given that it is less desirable from a tire control perspective relative to an independent setup. Its all about balance and compromise though, that's what is fun about designing eh?

[cheapracer]

I do disagree from a different view, tyre control comes primarily from the car's foundation - mostly where your weight is and how it gets to be transfered to your tyres. If your in the low CG, wide track and lowish weight club, thats a very good club to be a member of.

Independent will give less camber change effect from the inside wheel than a live axle will, granted, but if you slide the inside tyre will asist more on a live axle than many independents will but you might slide a little earlier from the extra unsprung weight of the live axle - and so it goes on.

By the way, its no good presuming just because its independent it's right. But I do know with a live axle that both tyres are flat on the ground and will be for 97% of the time - now thats not very technical or hard to understand.

Your right about the marketing though, there A-arms and pushrods with rockers is the fancy stuff these days - who cares if it works or not. If I presented a dual live axle car and a DBA-arm with pushrods and rockers, I know which is going to be easier to sell.

[gjd6640]

Hi! I've been following your progress for a few months and am excited to see what you come up with.

I just noticed that the Caterham 7 uses the de dion rear suspension setup. If it's good enough for them then I'm ok with it. :)

[cordycord]

If you're throwing an engine in the back, a-arms with a direct link shock all-around is my preference. Simple and adjustable. It's simply amazing to me how the new Lotus 7 copies with newer engines can still compete with nearly any car on the road, up until the speeds eclipse around 140mph. Don't know about you, but 140mph can even be tough on race tracks.

[cheapracer]

A-arms, sla, DeDion etc. has nothing to do with good or bad engineering. Roll center migration, RC/CG coupling and camber gain are whats important regardless of how it's acheived. Double A-arms is without a doubt the most misunderstood, the easiest to cock up and is cocked up often.

The 7 simply is an example of low, wide and light, 90% of the solution.

[cheapracer]

I put some more pics up today at the fibreglass factory and some of the facilities I have to hand....

www.flickr.com/cheapracer

[FIAROADSTER]

The buck seems "busy" especially around the dropped floor with the angle and all. Thats the thinking there? Is there a going to be a fiber tub with the seats molded in like the Atom?

[Karlo]

I put some more pics up today at the fibreglass factory and some of the facilities I have to hand....

www.flickr.com/cheapracer

Do they have OSHA there?:police: :poke:

I being funny!!

[cheapracer]

There is a major triangulation in the front of the chassis that it has to snake it's way around and your feet have to drop down there so thats the result. Theres a built in heel rest as well that you pivot your feet from when operating the pedals (wish more cars had that) not to forget strengthening ribs so yes, it does end up busy in design but is quite comfy when you sit there. The other busy parts are for steering column, brake master cylinder, throttle, clutch and beer can holder. Must have ribs everywhere to to stop flex of course.

Anyway, you won't be able to see much of the firewall.

maybe 2morrow I can show you the first workpiece.

I have never seen an Atom so I don't know but basically I will have a single unit that includes the 2 seats in the 1 mould.

[cheapracer]

Do they have OSHA there?:police: :poke:

I being funny!!


Ha! I was wondering if someone would mention that !!

I can't change a whole culture but please know that I look after my own workers at Western standards including wages.

[FIAROADSTER]

Atom with molded seats and a view of the floor. Aluminum is lighter than 'glass in the front section. This view of the floor also exhibits a "clean" look. Just a suggestion.

[cheapracer]

The nerve of Nick Smart to steal my idea 5 years before I thought about it. I'm going to report him to Ghostbusters immediately for practising phychics without a licnce.

[cordycord]

Ha! I was wondering if someone would mention that !!

I can't change a whole culture but please know that I look after my own workers at Western standards including wages.


One of my suppliers in China sells to Panasonic and Giant bicycle, among others. We had dinner with two representatives from those companies one night. Their job was to make sure that the workers at their supplier's plant were being treated properly, as they did not want to purchase from a company who practiced child labor, endangered their staff, forced work without pay, etceteras. Interesting.

[FIAROADSTER]

Bruce Meyers built a car in the late 60's (yeah, I remember them) called the Towd that had a 'glass tub that ran from front to back. It wrapped around the main tube and formed the main part of the "car". I have seen Atom's with the intregal seats and without using seat buckets.
Anxiously awaiting more developments from you.

[Karlo]

FIAROADSTER great pic.

cheapracer,

What will be your intended use for your Exo Cars you are building? Race / track driven that is street legal? Maybe the question was already asked?

[cordycord]

Bruce Meyers built a car in the late 60's (yeah, I remember them) called the Towd that had a 'glass tub that ran from front to back. It wrapped around the main tube and formed the main part of the "car". I have seen Atom's with the intregal seats and without using seat buckets.
Anxiously awaiting more developments from you.

I fondly remember sneaking in the garage when I was a child to sit in my dad's Myers Manx Sr and pretend I was a race car driver.

[cheapracer]

FIAROADSTER great pic.

cheapracer,

What will be your intended use for your Exo Cars you are building? Race / track driven that is street legal? Maybe the question was already asked?

Pick up girls!

It's primary purpose is a street car that can be used long term (daily driver) with standard maintenence shedules.

Of course it's built to take that longer mountain road rather than the freeway and theres no reason club/track days can't be acomplished but you would want more than 120 hp for that purpose so I envision people will want kit to roller forms to use their own idea of engine.

There most certainly is a Mk11 in the wings which will be much more full on performance wise and the good news is that whatever form that takes I will make sure Mk1 owners will be able to update to that easily and little cost.

For track work things are easily adjustable at present such as anti dive, anti squat, camber, caster - and I'm talking minutes for each adjustment. I hope that the basic car does the right thing so there won't be great reason to play with these adjustments anyway.

I say hope because theres not a developer alive who can tell you really what the car will do when you first drive it, doesn't matter how good it looks on paper.

[CMC#5]

Hey, no need to convince me a solid axle can work...I race a Camaro! Done right, which it often isnt, the independent will always win. Add in compromises (space, weight, whatever) and its not necessarily the right answer any more, I agree. In your case, I would think focusing on cost and durability would outweigh raw performance given that the car will already scare teh bejeesus out of 99% of the population...even with 120hp.

[cheapracer]

Done right, which it often isnt, the independent ....


Very often. its a shame for marketing that it always wins hands down. Not just yet but later I will make my own small sports car with a front beam and dedion axles.

I know it would not only work but due to advantages such as zero bump steer, consistency of RC/caster/camber, that it will probably be better than 95% of independents out there.

But it won't sell.

[cheapracer]

Heres an old double live ended racer...

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2006/01/25/kawasaki-factory-auto-racing/

[cordycord]

IMO the only solid axle that would readily sell in this market would be attached to a motorcycle engine. Those Qaife differentials are just too expensive, but you're really not giving away too much when you've got a suspended kart setup in the back. Come to think of it, it would be a very elegant, inexpensive solution--something that would lend itself to the Nemesis type of vehicle.

[cheapracer]

I have a couple of ideas for a side project mid next year but not very marketable - the case of "Oh that won't work" from a whole lot of people who have never tried it but will bag it anyway. Even further on that, even if an idea is successful the amount of people willing to bag an unknown (to them) quantity is amazing. As you mentioned, a solid axle would be seen to be ok to many if it had a motorcycle engine because of the perception that they do go together (thanks to Quads, Karts mostly) but it is just a perception, physics are physics.

In fact 1 thing I would like to do is a lightweight beam axled front car and I was just mentioning that in another forum recently to be hit with a heavy argument that it wouldn't work - to my knowlege it's never been done before so who would know, and now with more information about the Mumford Link getting around it's even better looking prospect. If you can keep the unsprung weight to a modest level you have 3 massive advantages - zero bumpsteer, zero KPI and 99% of the time both tyres flat to the ground. Again I will mention that marketing takes precedent over design.

[cordycord]

I read about a 50's car design for the track that had NO suspension whatsoever--just a frame that flexed a bit and 11psi in the tires. Hey, it works for go-karts, right? Anyway, this thing weighed in at only 500lbs. For the track, why not?

[cheapracer]

Merry Xmas everybody !!

I spent some time on Xmas Eve laying some bodywork foundation...

[Gage]

I don't know exactly what is going on, but it is exciting to watch your progress. :thumb2:

[cheapracer]

I don't know exactly what is going on, but it is exciting to watch your progress. :thumb2:


Happy to explain, what would you like to know?

The pictures above show some basic bodywork to develop from, I can't do it from thin air! It's basically a full cover to add shape to, build on or subtract from. In a few days that will all be fibreglass panels. This is the buck stage that later a mould will be taken from and then bodywork pieces will be made from that mould. It's heartbreaking later when you spend so much time on the buck and then after you take your mould from it you destroy the buck and all that work :(

I have some ideas and have asked an artist/sculpture for his opinions along the process.

[cordycord]

This is where a little PVA comes in handy...

Merry Christmas!

[cheapracer]

This is where a little PVA comes in handy...

Merry Christmas!

You use anything that works! I've used some strange things to get a buck into a shape. The fibreglass Guys don't care as long as it's smooth and strong enough.

[cordycord]

PVA--poly vinyl acetate. That's the stuff you slather on all your parts BEFORE laying down any resin over your buck, or whatever you use, so things don't stick together. It almost looks like you're using a roll of steel wool?! Yes?

[cheapracer]

Nah mate, you use wax, the actual branded "Mould Release Waxes" work great but you can use floor wax, surfboard wax etc. usualy at least 2 coats.

I honestly don't know about PVA glue.

Steel wool? lol, what ever made you think of that? Just some cotton waste matting.

[cheapracer]

Ok, got some more done on the weekend, laid some fibreglass onto the front so now I have a solid foundation to start styling and started to get some shape into the rear bodywork now..

www.flickr.com/cheapracer

[Karlo]

Mark

Working on Holiday weekend?

[cheapracer]

Mark

Working on Holiday weekend?

Holiday? When? You mean it's Easter 2007 already? well i'll be, how time flies....

[CMC#5]

lol Starting to look nice. I've only had one project where we made a fiberglas body around a tube frame chassis...what a PITA that was!

[cheapracer]

And Karlo, it's New Years Eve (happy everybody....) and I got home from work an hour or so ago (it's 11.30 now). I want my thingy finished so I can enjoy a little holiday this month.

[cheapracer]

Played around today a bit, tried out a shark nose, looks quite good in the flesh...

[FIAROADSTER]

Looks very good!

[Karlo]

The lines look Great!!

[cheapracer]

I may have mentioned my concern for getting the car out of the workshop, well today i had to do it - thru the window!

[cheapracer]

Long way to go yet and I do this on the run from my brain. Gabe's artwork for sure gave me the base idea but that a 2D drawing, this is a real, full size 3D car!

Just got home from another long day of sanding and breathing lots of dust (doesn't matter how good the respirator is, it still gets ya!).

[thebionicman]

That's looking great!

[cheapracer]

Hope it will look better tomorrow, I just looked at it in Paint Shop Pro and extended the rear of the front sides so now i know what I'm doing tomorrow morning!!

You can compare the 2 ...

[cheapracer]

As I said, I knew what I had to do today!

I extended the 'arms' back along the frame and it made a dramatic improvement to it's looks - at least in the flesh anyway!

Hope you agree!

More at www.flickr.com/cheapracer !

.

[FIAROADSTER]

Looks good!
A couple of questions. there are 4 openings on the hood. The 2 on the sides seem too far back for shocks and I can't offer an opinion on the others. What are they for?
As to the engine cover, thats not working for me. It looks too low to cover an engine? The roll bar fairings may look good from the rear, but they look like a major aerodynamic drag from the front. Could be a major imparement to vision also. My two cents, and worth every penny!

[cheapracer]

The holes/openings are just all styling, nothing more.

The engine cover is too low to cover a Merlin V24 but will do for most others! I can easily run my fist/forearm over the top of the highest part (inlet manifold) of the Toyota engine.

Lets not get any confusion here, Exo cars are as aero as a brick, total drag machines (and I mean as in CD, not 1/4 mile!). The roll bar fairings in fact will have some aero advantages and look a bit more sensible when the seats go in, the roll bars are in position and painted and theres 2 heads in front of them as well.

As many cars, they look totally different in the flesh and it's pretty darn cute and in a tuff way, not girly cute :-)

I welcome your comments by the way, but don't lose sight of the fact it is still very much in proto stage and very unfinished - I'll put some more shots of it from today with wheels in rough position for you in a moment.

[cheapracer]

as stated...

Oh and I'm starting to play with the rear as well...

.

[FIAROADSTER]

The wheels add scale to the whole thing. They are such little cars. The last view reminds me of some women i have seen, but none than I know.

[cheapracer]

They are little cars as you can see here...

Pictures don't show the real shapes in real life, I am very self critical and very happy at the result (in real life) :-)
.

[cheapracer]

I'm off to Oz and will be traveling for the next 2 days so why nothing from me for a couple of days (the forum sighs with relief! lol).

[cheapracer]

Ahh warm weather, golden beaches with topless woman, Oz isn't such a bad place!

Don't worry, not slacking off, looking at righthand driveline options while I'm here!

[cheapracer]

I've been spending a lot of time in car wrecking yards while I'm in Oz on holiday and I'm seriously looking at the 5S-FE Toyota 2.2 Camry 135hp engine - very good attributes such as price, reliable , good torque, availability etc. and if it's not enough for some people they should be able to swing a 3S-GTE Turbo for an easy 260hp+ with the same box and mountings....

[Karlo]

Who is watching the shop? How long are going to gone, you got work to do you know------ :)

[cheapracer]

Yeah I know, I didn't want this hoilday, it's at a bad time for me but women......

It's cool, the body moulds are being done while I'm away, I'm investigating right hand drive info here and I've designed a radical new concept car while I've had time to think so it's not all a loss.

Back to work Feb 3rd.

[cheapracer]

YCHEAP,

I started thinking I was the only one who thought you are a douche bag, but apparently you are the resident "Know it all and Can never be Wrong" kind of a guy in this forum. No biggie. There is always one like you in each forum, so you've cemented your place in this one.

Your having to appear right at every discussion tells me you probably cannot take constructive criticism on your own project, so I shouldn't even waste my time telling you this, but if you want to make any money on your project, you might want to consider revising the following:

1. Rear facing radiator. It gets quite hot back there. Ask any Atom owner.

2. 1.6L engine w/ 105 HP. Brammo only had 2 orders (out of over 200) for their 205 HP Ecotec. 1.6L may be good enough for domestic Chinese market, but even the Chinese who can afford to pay for your car will want a lot more HP.

3. Target weight. Compared to other exocars, your design seems like the heaviest. Keep in mind that even the Atom comes in at 1,350 - 1,400 lbs.

4. Rear suspension. No matter how you try to convince others in this forum that you don't need fancy rear suspension, when it comes to plunking their money down, most of us will pay a little more for MEV or RCR models over yours. Others are just more polite and don't want to hurt your feelings.

There are dreamers who always appear to be right with no dough to show for, and there are people with dough who get what they want. It's hard to make money when you don't cater to people with dough, regardless of who's right.
. .

Ahh bored at the moment, visiting her relo's now ....

Dear mxyzptlk (mxyzptlk - see the irony, Superman's arch enemy! lol!)

Thanks for the know it all adknowlegement, good call. By the way, I'm not right in every argument, I just post know and sustantiated facts.

1/ I'm not quite sure about your rear radiator comment but thats where I want the heat, behind and away from the passengers. Ever driven a lghtweight special or racing car in traffic on a hot day? How about a big naked bike? I have, it gets hot and often very uncomfortable from nearby radiator pipes and hot air blowing towards you. I also ran some calculations based on radiator placements and the weight distribution through less weight and the ability to further lower the fuel tank, driver and passenger - I was hoping for the same but was delighted that things were actually improved thru this placement.

2/ The 1.6 is a base model, the frame not only has room for a larger engine but the whole design is based around making this an easy task. You know nothing about the Chinese market where 3 cyl. 800cc Suzuki Alto's rule.

3/ What a silly proposition that you know how much my car weighs by looking at it. At least you put a truer weight on the Atom than most do. I actually have'nt weighed my car other than paper calculations based on tube used but assure you that I and a skinny little Chinese Guy can move the chassis around with suspension attached with ease.

4/ People aren't fools, suspension at the end of the day comes down to what a car will do for the dollars that are outlayed and if the car lives up to it's intended purpose or not.

By the way, I've been building specials, race cars and other similar for the last 30 years, what is it that you actually do?

[FIAROADSTER]

Where did this come from?????????

[Karlo]

Must be here? Hm

http://www.supermansupersite.com/mxyzptlk.html

[mkim1]

Ahh bored at the moment, visiting her relo's now ....

Dear mxyzptlk (mxyzptlk - see the irony, Superman's arch enemy! lol!)

Thanks for the know it all adknowlegement, good call. By the way, I'm not right in every argument, I just post know and sustantiated facts.

1/ I'm not quite sure about your rear radiator comment but thats where I want the heat, behind and away from the passengers. Ever driven a lghtweight special or racing car in traffic on a hot day? How about a big naked bike? I have, it gets hot and often very uncomfortable from nearby radiator pipes and hot air blowing towards you. I also ran some calculations based on radiator placements and the weight distribution through less weight and the ability to further lower the fuel tank, driver and passenger - I was hoping for the same but was delighted that things were actually improved thru this placement.

2/ The 1.6 is a base model, the frame not only has room for a larger engine but the whole design is based around making this an easy task. You know nothing about the Chinese market where 3 cyl. 800cc Suzuki Alto's rule.

3/ What a silly proposition that you know how much my car weighs by looking at it. At least you put a truer weight on the Atom than most do. I actually have'nt weighed my car other than paper calculations based on tube used but assure you that I and a skinny little Chinese Guy can move the chassis around with suspension attached with ease.

4/ People aren't fools, suspension at the end of the day comes down to what a car will do for the dollars that are outlayed and if the car lives up to it's intended purpose or not.

By the way, I've been building specials, race cars and other similar for the last 30 years, what is it that you actually do?



I like the tone of this conversation a lot more now! : )

1. Trust me. I got a 2nd degree sunburn & almost suffered a heat stroke driving the Atom for 1,000 miles on I-5 and around LA traffic in August. Unbearable! The only time I appreciated the radiator was in the evening, when it acted as a cabin heater while the exposed engine bay allowed it to cool down to 178 degrees. As you know, even these bikes and race cars place the radiator up front for better cooling over driver comfort, but if you can prove that your engine can perform better with the radiator behind the exhaust, more power to you.

2. Yes, I know the Chinese market more than you think, since I analyzed the market potential for Ford when I was the marketing manager there. Last time I was in Qingdao, China (November) I didn't see any Suzuki Altos. Maybe in India still, but you know even the low-income Chinese nowadays want bigger, more powerful cars than the 800cc Altos from early 90's.

3. I lifted the Atom frame at Brammo before I bought mine, and it was slightly less than 100 lbs. w/o the tub. Just by looking at your design (which adds another layer of frame for the engine bay / cockpit, not to mention more body panels), I'm willing to bet that your car will weight more than 1,425 lbs. by the time the wheels & tires seen on your photos are installed. If not, I'll buy you a bowl of wonton soup. : )

4. You're right, people are not fools. That's why given the same choices, they will not buy cars with the stamped-steel suspension parts that look like they came from a parts bin of another production car. If you can build the frame with the steel tubes, it wouldn't hurt to produce wish bones from your shop so at least the entire car looks custom. If you think you'll do fine without them, more power to you.

The fact that I'm a successful commercial real estate developer may not mean much to you (other than the fact that I represent the target U.S. customer pretty well), but my 10+ years at an OEM as a management, as well as having a B.S. in Mech.E., M.S. in Industrial Engr. & MBA should qualify me as someone who knows cars a little more than an average Joe. If you like the Ford Indigo (on which I worked with Reynard to get it track-ready), you now know why I like the Sonic7 more than other exocars. : )

BTW, I'm not an enemy. I'm an equal opportunity lover! LOL

[mkim1]

Must be here? Hm

http://www.supermansupersite.com/mxyzptlk.html

This is funny as hell !!!

[cheapracer]

Just a quick update,

been on holiday in Oz for the last 3 weeks soaking up some sun, beach, bourban and cola's and returned to find the fibreglass company has completed 3 of the 5 major body moulds (front/nose, rear, firewall, left and right sides - I had hoped for all 5....) so creeping slowly closer.

[Gage]

The picture progress looks great!

[cheapracer]

While I was in Oz I scouted engine/drivelines and I must say that the Toyota 5SFE engine is looking good, at least for Oz - how about disc to disc and everything in between running for $500? Now thats Locost!

And for the sporty Guys a 3SGET (Celica turbo) will pop into the hole with 260hp and if thats not enough your delusional.

[cheapracer]

So these last few days I have been shaping the left and right lower side bucks to make the moulds for them.

Pictures aren't worth seeing, its upside down while I'm doing this and in quite a messy state as well :-)

[cheapracer]

So I finished the bucks for the side panels and shipped it back to the fibreglass company to make the moulds - and I forgot the camera yesterday....

Ill nick over there tomorrow and get somemore progress snaps, looks much more complete with the sides.

[eisenjj]

Can't wait to see your progress! What is your estimate, if you have one, at this time for shipment?

[cheapracer]

My biggest holdup now is engine package - getting hold of a donar car is very hard here and it's the final phases for a stage 1 kit, making up engine mount brackets etc.

You can not work from 3D drawings, never works out. I have a choice now of 3 cars and hope to get my hands on one this week. I have decided all 3 are worthy for 1 reason or another. I have the 1.6 option of course but feel Stateside a few more cubes are required especially as the Sonic which is a competitive package, accepts a 2.0. It is the Sonic that has made me do some rethinking in this area.

I could have some kits ready in a month but have learnt that here nothing suprises me - I'm sure there will be some hurdle to get around that will waste more time.

[cheapracer]

Hmmm, I found a GM L27 V6 3800, transmission and whole driveline today....

[gjd6640]

That's what the Stalker uses. They're supposed to be a bit difficult to handle with the power level that the supercharged 3800 puts out. My brother has a friend that owns two of them. At least one of that guy's has the supercharged 3800 and he doesn't complain. :)

That drivetrain will be readily available to those of us who are located in the US.

[cheapracer]

Thats the whole point - my car is "Locost" as possible. The 3800 starts at 170hp what further you do is your business - I will just mount up for the bottom end, tranny and wide track driveline. The wide track driveline is available in Europe too by the way.

I think your pockets will still be heavy after a GM V6 purchase.

[cheapracer]

Of VW engines.....

So heres the thing, old series 2 VW Jettas are thick on the ground here, thousands of them used as taxis and parts are incredibly cheap for them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Jetta#Second_generation


What does that mean to me? I am understanding that the engine/transmission mounts are the same for the old and new, basically never changed meaning you could put an old Golf/Rabbit 1.6 SOHC in right through to a 2008 2.5 DOHC 20valver and every model inbetween, GTI's, turbo's - this makes for quite an amazing choice as well as being a very International engine.

Doing some research into this now.

[eisenjj]

Sounds interesting indeed!

[Ken_Kim]

You can not work from 3D drawings, never works out.


Man, you need to get some new help. 3D done right is rad.

[cheapracer]

Man, you need to get some new help. 3D done right is rad.

I source myself at ground level so I go into a parts bin with verniers and tape measure in hand - no reason to see if it fits in 3D. I also visulise dimensions in space very well, maybe just lucky for this.

As anyone who has worked as an Engineer in the car industry will tell you, the delays to release a new model are often sorting out parts that don't fit that fit perfectly in the 3D model - I have, hence my (from experience) comment.

I'm just now trying to find out about the Mk4 Rabbit/Jetta/Passat subframe differences to the Mk 1,2 and 3, the info is scanty which makes me think they are the same because theres nothing to report but I would like some support for that thought.

[Gage]

I think results speak for themeselves. Great job so far Cheapracer.

[eisenjj]

I think results speak for themeselves. Great job so far Cheapracer.

I'll second that!!!:thumb2:

[cheapracer]

Oh gosh Guys, if I wasn't such a conceited, arrogant bastard I'd blush.

But I am, so I won't :D

[Defiant00]

Hey Mark this is Aaron, could you please email me when you get this message?

Thanks!

[cheapracer]

Yes Mate :-)

[Defiant00]

Ah, he lives!

Excellent, I'm looking forward to the email.

[cheapracer]

Just back from the fibreglass co., they told me the moulds were finished but negleted to mention they haven't braced them yet (which you need to do before you pull them off) so a wasted trip but took some pics anyway.

At least the firewall mould is ready.

As I mentioned, not a pretty state at the moment - for those who have ever been in a fibreglass place you would understand, a messy business.

[cheapracer]

Moulds came off this morning but i still have to wait 2 or 3 days for some panels.

Ahh Chinese social culture sends me nuts :run: I sat and drank tea at their factory this morning for an hour all the time thinking "why couldn't you use this hour to start making my panels"!! :awais:

[txjeepn]

It’s really looking good! I worked in a fiberglass fab shop while I was in college and know firsthand how horribly messy working with that stuff is.

[Defiant00]

Dunno if you got my reply, but can you send me the update again, as it either wasn't attached or didn't go through.

[cheapracer]

Still alive Guys, I just had to give some time up to attend to some restructuring that should see smoother co-operation for future projects. Probably should have done it earlier and but one of my failurings is I'm one of those independent types...

Anyway, the first bodywork pieces finally came through showing a few spots that need to be attended to but not so bad.

Oh and this is the first time you have seen the lower side panels (excuse the fit, the panels are just sitting there you can even see an old engine mount holding up the right lower side panel :-) )

.

[thebionicman]

Any new updates? From a visual aspect this thing looks like great, but what do I know I drive an M Coupe.

[cheapracer]

Yeah lots of news coming soon. Lots of restructuring and a few steps backwards again (brake area) and an engine program nearly locked in that should worry a few (except Don Garlits and Bolus!).

Making jigs is slowing me down but I have to have them ready next month to meet an agreement for production dates so it's not such a bad thing.

[cordycord]

Yeah lots of news coming soon. Lots of restructuring and a few steps backwards again (brake area) and an engine program nearly locked in that should worry a few (except Don Garlits and Bolus!).

Making jigs is slowing me down but I have to have them ready next month to meet an agreement for production dates so it's not such a bad thing.

Spill the beans...

[cheapracer]

Not a lot of beans at the moment, making jigs is taking time but as soon as I have confirmation of the engine situation you will be the first to know :-)

But they won't be Mazda DISI I'm sorry to say but I will mention that my lady said earlier I could use our Mazda 6 as a donor so it was on the cards at one stage!

[FIAROADSTER]

Its June already. Spill some beans time.
What exactly is the penalty for missing production dates in the Peoples "Republic"?

[cheapracer]

You think I dont know it's June already!!

I have to have a car finished and drivable as well as the component jigs finished and some bills to pay by July 1st and the way its going that will include a hospital bill for my nervous breakdown :nervous: :nervous:

You will see some pictures and have information before then but not right now because of some major changes being made.

[cheapracer]

What exactly is the penalty for missing production dates in the Peoples "Republic"?

I don't know, nobody has ever been seen again to tell.

[silo24]

I don't know, nobody has ever been seen again to tell.

Doesn't it involve something resembling a third (red) eye in the middle of the forehead?

Very interested in your machine CR, hopefully want to be one of the first UK customers if it's anything like the pictures so far.

[cheapracer]

No its better, trust me, I'm a car salesman!

It looks tall in the pictures but it's tiny but wide in real life, look back in this thread and see it when its in the back of the small truck.

Oh here it is - but theres been some slight changes since then but basically the same.

[OneFastRide]

You guys may want to read Cheapracer's comments on this thread: http://www.exocars.net/showthread.php?t=1729 before buying from this guy. As they say ATTITUDE is Everything so BUYER BEWARE...

[alljobs]

OneFastRide... I am getting older and therfore slower in the curves and on the curves but I am not sure what you are saying. I read the entire set of posts as you suggested. It appears he is very knowledgable about things automotive (even other members agreed with his statements). His frustration with what he knew to be a dangerous and even life threatening design flaw that was being ignored by a novice builder may have led to his less than tactful presentation of the facts. What I do not understand is why that would lead to your statement. Would you mind explaining it for me?

[cheapracer]

Well One Fast ride, you may not believe it but I actually tried to help the Guy, did you notice I actually sourced information for him? Did you notice this comment "and when it comes to doing your suspension I'll help you so we can get you some nice low and dynamically stable roll centers etc."?

The Guy isn't an engineer and all he wants is people to tell him "awesome, wicked or sick" etc. rather than actually listen to advice - in the meantime he's going to kill himself or someone else and the whole industry will suffer from it.

Also what you didn't see was what he wrote yesterday about this forum as a whole, not sure if he deleted it or Karlo did. His comment today about the forum and in a previous post some months ago in that thread are certainly less than favorable to for Mr A.D.D.

Have a nice day :-)

PS; Wicked Man!! (I'm in training).

[ehansen007]

Hey Cheapracer, I applaud your efforts! I'm sure I"m not the first to ask if anyone from Ariel or their attorneys office has called? It must be quite dodgy, or? Is it a problem at all? I'm all for an affordable atom-style vehicle and I actually like your design better. Also, what's with the black and white? These pictures look like spy photos from the Eastern Block back in the 60's or something. I love it!

[Qcsprint]

Mark

Glad to see you're still at it, the 3" tubing looks great:coolnana:, sorry to see I have to go to the Locost forums for updates.

Keep up the good work, I'm rooting for you.

Cheers

[cheapracer]

What do you consider to be the same as the Ariel?

Theres nothing the same and especially nothing 'copied' - only the concept itself could be considered pioneered by Ariel which it wasn't but they sure got the right combo of styling together for a tube frame special to actually be accepted as a sports car. Previous attempts were pretty much off road buggies looking odd on public roads.

By the way, I do wonder if any of us would be here if not for the infamous Top Gear episode that gave one of the single greatest publicity hits for any vehicle ever - how can you watch that episode and not want an Atom!

Prototypes are ugly things with cut and shuts, weld everywhere, grinding etc - black and white simply hides all that and puts emphasis on the basic shapes.

Design is always personal, I think the Atom looks a bit dated now and am actually dissapointed they havent upgraded a bit styling wise. then again they have a waiting list of 18 months so I guess they can be complacent. I think the 500 looks bloody aweful, wing too big, wheels too small, not to mention the price....

[Crazyhippy]

How's production coming? Anything ready to let us commoners attempt to assemble?:coolnana:

[cheapracer]

Assemble very little, just drop your engine/trans in and a few odd things that you always seem to have to do (bleed brakes for example) and drive away.

As always too slow, this place drives most crazy who try to establish here, luckily I already have mental problems so I was pre-prepared in that area.

Some news this week I hope.

[ehansen007]

What do you consider to be the same as the Ariel?

Theres nothing the same and especially nothing 'copied' - only the concept itself could be considered pioneered by Ariel which it wasn't but they sure got the right combo of styling together for a tube frame special to actually be accepted as a sports car. Previous attempts were pretty much off road buggies looking odd on public roads.



Fair enough! You never know. Some companies invent only to pidgin hole the design and make more money suing imitators. Personally, I hope your car becomes the best. I wish you good luck over there in China. Must be an interesting experience.

[Defiant00]

Sorry to have to show up here as well, but can I get a response to either my PMs or emails, Mark?

Thanks.

[Paul]

This is my first post. This looks like it will be awesome! You solved the pointed nose problem that the atom has.

[Edward500]

I wonder whats going on with this car, haven't seen any updates for over a month now.

[Karlo]

When Mark is ready I am sure he will respond. Patience :old:

[txjeepn]

Or he is just too busy knocking every one else's car to work on his?

[acrtl1000s]

Easy there killer. No need to make all of us from down here look like ignorant rednecks with your uncalled-for comments. I can only imagine all the designing and red-tape he is dealing with in china.

[cordycord]

I deal with China--have lunch once a week with the local party official and there is no "red tape". If you want RED TAPE, try California. Last week I finally finished the "tie my own shoelaces" forms, in triplicate. I expect a response next year some time...

[txjeepn]

Easy there killer. No need to make all of us from down here look like ignorant rednecks with your uncalled-for comments. I can only imagine all the designing and red-tape he is dealing with in china.

Wow and that comment puts you in such a fantastic light. Good job!:thumb2:

[Edward500]

When Mark is ready I am sure he will respond. Patience :old:

My patience is wearing thin. I'm having a feeling this car will never see the light of day.

[trboboost91]

updates?

[cheapracer]

My patience is wearing thin. I'm having a feeling this car will never see the light of day.

Happy to place bets.

[trboboost91]

all arguing aside, have there been any interesting developments?

[AZDave]

Damn cr musta been on long holiday :)
WB

[UND_Sioux]

Happy to place bets.

Hey cheapracer,

Can you give me a remote ballpark timeframe. I am getting pretty close to pulling the trigger on a car, and I am interested in your design, but I don't want to wait very long. Are we talking months, or a year or more?

[cheapracer]

Will have a couple of development cars on American soil to be seen and touched by interested parties in January.

[rustynut]

Where at? I want to see and touch.

[UND_Sioux]

Me too. I can wait until January, but not much longer. I'd be happy with specs and pictures at this point.

[cheapracer]

January should be ok, will have a major update next week.

[cheapracer]

The reason for the delays are a little complicated to explain and may raise expectations I can't meet but this picture was over a month ago and I hope to start test driving in a few days time.

[cheapracer]

The aim is to present a car that will be able to have an engine dropped in with some minimal additional work to get it drivable. The amount of kitcars sitting around unfinished is a tribute to the misunderstanding from people of what is required to build one - there will be none of that misunderstanding or fear with this project. What you get is a near complete car and what is required will be made clear and readily available with backup and service. It is in my interest to make your project a success with continued support, more than one supplier/manufacturer has gone under by not understanding this importance and the frustration it causes to the client.

The aim is to supply a roller that can actually be driven downhill, ie working brakes, steering, gearchange linkages, basic electrics/harness etc. that an engine can be fitted to, harnessed (engine ecu) and able to be driven within a reasonable time frame.

How much finish detail is still being figured out but be assured trying to get all those annoying, fiddly and time consuming things done for you as well as a single major decision to come over the next week.

I wouldn't put money down on another until you hear of that decision.

[trboboost91]

sounds like a winner if the price is right and stateside availability is made easy.

[golftdibrad]

That thing looks great but the wheels are teh suck :D

[cheapracer]

sounds like a winner if the price is right and stateside availability is made easy.

There is already a distributor network partly in place. The main distributor and contact point is well known in the industry for all the right reasons.

As for price well it's Made in China isn't it! The downside to that and a battle I am up against is the visions of quality that also go with that tag, all I can say is I'm not Chinese, I have been here for 5 years and that I have a grasp on it.

Quality in China can vary between poor and stunningly high standards by the way, you just get to see the cheap knock off crap that importers want to make a quick buck from, Chinese people often won't buy that crap themselves here.

I have to add the tag Made In America is there for some of the important stuff.

I aim to be here for the long run and service/backup will be a priority.

[Gage]

That thing looks great but the wheels are teh suck :D

I agree.

[africanstyle]

I'm not gonna lie... I really like that! But, like brad said, the wheels aren't so great.

[cheapracer]

Wheely?

[trboboost91]

I'm not gonna lie... I really like that! But, like brad said, the wheels aren't so great.

i was gonna make a coment on them as well but then thought to myself,
those can't possibly be the wheels of choice to be included with the "roller".
probably just some wheels on there for the moment. and even if those are the ones included, then thank god they are the most easily changed part on the car!:D

[cheapracer]

Well I guess it was a worthwhile couple of postings to discover not to supply wheels.

I think they look great but possibly I am tainted by looking at the real thing and maybe I can't see what you Guyts are seeing in the pictures.

To get balance (no spite intended) I don't like Gage's wheels, personal thing obviously.

[golftdibrad]

Well I guess it was a worthwhile couple of postings to discover not to supply wheels.

I think they look great but possibly I am tainted by looking at the real thing and maybe I can't see what you Guyts are seeing in the pictures.

To get balance (no spite intended) I don't like Gage's wheels, personal thing obviously.


ship it with steelies. they are cheap and who cares if they get banged up in shipping?

[Lynn]

Well I guess it was a worthwhile couple of postings to discover not to supply wheels.

I think they look great but possibly I am tainted by looking at the real thing and maybe I can't see what you Guyts are seeing in the pictures.

To get balance (no spite intended) I don't like Gage's wheels, personal thing obviously.
I say this because I am trying to be helpful.
what we see is a 1980s wheel with a machined spoke. in the us we don't do those anymore. Look at Volk, Hre, BBS, 6, 7, 9, 10, spoke, and mesh wheels. select a wheel that is from 2010. these wheels are expensive but cheep wheels do not sell in the states. look at Motegi for a silghtly lower price wheel that looks like the expensive ones. if you show us a car with those wheels you will kill the deal before you even get started. In the US wheels and tires sell the car, it is the first thing you see. http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/motegi_racing/motegi-racing-wheels.jsp

[Conquest351]

Hey guys,
I've been in contact with Mark for a long time about this car. The decision he's on the edge of making will set this car apart from every other one in the market. As to the quality issues, I can tell you that Mark is on top of his construction staff keeping the quality of the welds, manufacturing, and finishing of the product to make sure this all meets our high standards here in the states. I've heard from a few people that there are some kits on the market that look like crap once you start looking at the quality and finish.

As to the wheels, don't worry. I believe he will ship them with the cheapest thing he can put on, or they will be shipped sans wheels ready for you to slap yours on, or you can send him your wheels and they'll be on the vehicle when it arrives. Anyway, keep an ear out guys and you'll hear all you need to very soon.

Laters,

Brian

[cheapracer]

I'm just going round and round, getting wheely tyred of this and feeling flat.

[cheapracer]

I actually started the car up for the first time today, hope to drive at least a few feet tomorrow then make all immediate adjustments that are always required and within a few days try to get a few road miles on it.

Obligatory video ensured.

[Conquest351]

Finally!!!!! Lol

[Crazyhippy]

So when and where can we see one in the flesh (or steel and Glass as the case may be):thumb2:

I need a reason to not buy a Ducati:king:

[cheapracer]

Well first drive today inside the workshop, everything working that should be and no leaks - yet.

And gave a workbench a hell of a fright, what sort of a moron would WTO a never before driven proto while just sitting on a loose bench seat base? And who the hell put a workbench inside a workshop anyway... :D


I am trying of course to spread the cars West, East and Texas.


Ok, that "decision" I mentioned earlier - I can confirm that it is now very likely that the production chassis will be in that non steel stuff called aluminium.

Thats that silvery aluminium stuff made from aluminium. :bday:


.

[golftdibrad]

Yikes, I for one would be out when it comes to getting an aluminum space frame from china, besies for all the reasons of it being an aluminum space frame. I'd float the idea to your potential customers and see how they feel about it

[cheapracer]

Yikes, I for one would be out when it comes to getting an aluminum space frame from china, besides for all the reasons of it being an aluminum space frame. I'd float the idea to your potential customers and see how they feel about it

Thats a serious and damaging accusation with no foundation not mentioning the amount of aluminium products that you use daily out of China and not to mention the 22,000 tons of extruded high quality aluminium product that my Partner sends to the USA annually and increasing.
Then theres all those Japanese aluminium bikes frames, of which some are made in China, running around on the road and in motocross.
Seen the latest BMW 5 series chassis by the way?
Oh and of course go tell all that to Lotus.

This is 2009 not 1970.

Justify your innuendo with facts.

[golftdibrad]

I'm on the phone, so no essay. But quickly,
If it's a welded structure it needs to be heat treated, probally in a solution but my materials is rusty. Also, after heat treating your married to screws and rivets.

The lotus and bmw use glue so it's not a fair comparison.

[trboboost91]

rough estimate on weight savings going with AL VS. Steel??

not bashing or adding to the argument but i can agree with not using AL.

personally im planning on using mine on the track frequently and steel WILL hold up to more general abuse than aluminum, IE hitting or getting hit by other cars (god forbid), off track excursions, and the like.

[Lynn]

A properly designed tube frame made of chrome moly is way stronger for the weight then any aluminum one. when you use aluminum the tube has to be twice as thick to be only half as strong and then it will weight the same or more. aluminum has to be heat treated after welding unless you make the parts way bigger then required to make up for the loss in strength at the weld joint and then it will weight more. and then there is the problem of repair. most all of the new vehicles that are made of aluminum are all but repairable but it does fit into the new through it a way world we live in today. aluminum is to expensive to repair and most insurance companies will total it out for even the littlest of repair.

[Karlo]

The market demand of a Steel or Aluminum frame will happen soon once the chassis arrives.

[rustynut]

I would think most people that plan to buy one will be installing an engine of thier choice. Or will that not be an option? If so steel is a lot more user friendly for 95% of the people who would be buying one and putting it together themselves.
On the other hand an anodized AL frame would look awesome.:bwhip:
Like a big hot wheels.

[rustynut]

And gave a workbench a hell of a fright, what sort of a moron would WTO a never before driven proto while just sitting on a loose bench seat base? And who the hell put a workbench inside a workshop anyway... :D





.

That reminds me of my younger days. Doing a brake job on a corvette and backing it off the rack before I pumped up the pedal :eek: Never did that again.

[cordycord]

A new twist to the Mongrel saga. It will be interesting to see where this one takes us...:)

[cheapracer]

A properly designed tube frame made of chrome moly is way stronger for the weight then any aluminum one..

aluminum has to be heat treated after welding unless you make the parts way bigger then required to make up for the loss in strength at the weld joint


Properly designed for what? I am building road based sports cars intended to last a long time, I actually refer to them as Mountain cars (Sunday blast in the hills) you are generally refering to race cars. There simply becomes a point where strength is irrelevant, doen't matter if the ChM is 100 times stronger if the aluminium already way surpasses the required strength - it's just a moot point.

I saw all of these arguments all over the place when the Japanese started to introduce aluminium frames for first roadbikes and then shock, horror, Motocross where they would "kill" people as they "cracked" and "broke" under those extreme stresses. The market was slow to respond because of all that but look what you have today. BMX and Mountain bikes are literally paper thin and ultralight and while you have to be vigilant and check for cracks they are living proof of how far you can go.

I seriously suggest you study up on Chrome Moly, I will build steel frames to order no problem, same jigs, but I won't use ChM and you'll find a lot of race car builders are happy to agree with that although it seems to hold a much higher status in America - I believe that comes from mandated Super Speedway usage of it that has to do with it's properties in huge impact accidents (open for correction). If you think for a moment that ChM cracks less than Aluminium especially in welded areas, you would be wrong.

Just a quick random quote pulled quickly off the net for example...

"The open-road-racing and land-speed rules recommend against chrome-moly tube, as it can be brittle near the welds if the area is not flame-annealed to normalize it after welding, but they do not outlaw it".

Sounds little different from the process required for aluminium that you mention above....

[cordycord]

RCR has used aluminum successfully. Fran's just not as willing to argue online. :)

[Lynn]

Properly designed for what? I am building road based sports cars intended to last a long time, I actually refer to them as Mountain cars (Sunday blast in the hills) you are generally refering to race cars. There simply becomes a point where strength is irrelevant, doen't matter if the ChM is 100 times stronger if the aluminium already way surpasses the required strength - it's just a moot point.

I saw all of these arguments all over the place when the Japanese started to introduce aluminium frames for first roadbikes and then shock, horror, Motocross where they would "kill" people as they "cracked" and "broke" under those extreme stresses. The market was slow to respond because of all that but look what you have today. BMX and Mountain bikes are literally paper thin and ultralight and while you have to be vigilant and check for cracks they are living proof of how far you can go.

I seriously suggest you study up on Chrome Moly, I will build steel frames to order no problem, same jigs, but I won't use ChM and you'll find a lot of race car builders are happy to agree with that although it seems to hold a much higher status in America - I believe that comes from mandated Super Speedway usage of it that has to do with it's properties in huge impact accidents (open for correction). If you think for a moment that ChM cracks less than Aluminium especially in welded areas, you would be wrong.

Just a quick random quote pulled quickly off the net for example...

"The open-road-racing and land-speed rules recommend against chrome-moly tube, as it can be brittle near the welds if the area is not flame-annealed to normalize it after welding, but they do not outlaw it".

Sounds little different from the process required for aluminium that you mention above....
It would seem you have little experience with ChM or you would know the benefits. ChM welded properly does not become brittle and the requirements to flame anneal are very simple and inexpensive compared the requirements to heat treat aluminum. Aluminum after welding becomes soft as butter. when heat treated it can be very strong but if the heat treating is not engineered right it can be brittle. it also will become work hardened over time which can cause stress cracks that are very hard to detect until the let go all at once. cracks are not easy to fix because they require heat treating after the repair. Aluminum motorcycle frames do not have to withstand a crash with a person inside. and the aluminum car frames like Lotus or BMW are throw away after an accident. very hard to repair and very costly if the are repaired. you will have to show me that it will work on the exo type of car before I will believe this is a good idea. maybe you will be the first to succeed of the many that have failed.

[cheapracer]

1/ the aluminum car frames like Lotus or BMW are throw away after an accident. Very hard to repair and very costly if the are repaired.

2/ you will have to show me that it will work on the exo type of car before I will believe this is a good idea.

3/ maybe you will be the first to succeed of the many that have failed.

1/ So what, not relevant to me - are you aware of the cost I can produce/replace a frame for? (No, you don't). Are you aware of the price of a standard Bosch relay purchased at 'John Smiths Auto Parts Store' compared to the same part under a Lotus or BMW part number?

2/ Believe what you want to believe, avert your gaze, you'll sleep better.

3/ Who are the many? I haven't actually seen an aluminium Exo Car, please fill me in on the details.......I have seen a large number of successful Group B rally cars though, more relevant that race cars going for lightweight and short life expectancy but I already mentioned that I'm not building short life race cars but apparantly you didn't notice.

[cheapracer]

Fran's just not as willing to argue online. :)

That would make him smarter than me without doubt :D

[cheapracer]

Aluminum motorcycle frames do not have to withstand a crash with a person inside. .

I'm not quite too sure what to make of this comment, what are you suggesting?

Lets take the very popular Locost option for example, for a side impact you have 2 x 1" square thin wall steel frame with 1" diagonals (so 3 x thin small tubes protecting you)

Vs

2 x 3" round thick walled aluminium with a 1.25" diagonals (so 2x large thick tubes with smaller thick diagonal protecting you)

Add that the Locost is a flat surface, easy to hang your arm over the edge whereas my frame presents a convex surface, spreading impact energy laterally and inside you sit some distance from the frame as well as the frame is quite high, I actually think it's higher than anything else similar (stand to be corrected).

Which would you rather be in?

What else were you comparing it to?

I'm a bit sensitive on safety issues, it wasn't just looks that I went for 3" tubes - then theres the crush structure at the front, never a doubt about the use of twin roll bars (Atom single roll bar :thumbdown2:), suspension arms design to not enter passenger compartment under impact etc.

[golftdibrad]

Anyone that considers these things any safer than a motorcycle may be kidding themselves. Its a measured risk. You considered it in your design and that is awesome but there will still be a higher risk to driving one of these things on the road vs say a ford focus.

My concern is about the Al and that you cant weld on it. Once you build that chassis and heat treat it the end user cant weld a damn thing to it without compromising the whole structure.

its your business and your clearly gonna do what you do, but I wouldn't buy an aluminum frame kit car for alot of reasons. take that as you will for market research. I think it would be wise to offer it as an option, or steel whatever floats your boat.

[cheapracer]

Anyone that considers these things any safer than a motorcycle may be kidding themselves. Its a measured risk. You considered it in your design and that is awesome but there will still be a higher risk to driving one of these things on the road vs say a ford focus.

My concern is about the Al and that you cant weld on it. Once you build that chassis and heat treat it the end user cant weld a damn thing to it without compromising the whole structure.

its your business and your clearly gonna do what you do, but I wouldn't buy an aluminum frame kit car for alot of reasons. take that as you will for market research. I think it would be wise to offer it as an option, or steel whatever floats your boat.

No safer than a motorcycle :huh:? errrr, you know, like sitting inside a big strong cage, strapped into the seat Vs 100% exposed limbs and no attachment to vehicle when out of control etc.....certainly seems to be some confusion there.

You mean a Ford Focus that is designed for a certain level of comfort, weighs in at 1200kgs and therefore it's yaw rate is appreciably slower than a less compromised 600kg sporty car along with it's braking distance being considerably further giving less ability to avoid accidents in the first instance and I remind you that racing/rally cars have the air bags and the crappy 3 point inertia reel seat belts removed in favour of 4+ point harnesses and a helmet (which the majority of Exo drivers would use) I'm sure most of us have seen many race drivers walk away from some big nasties... The biggest killer in road cars are side impacts, front impact you may convince me I would be better off in a Focus but not for a side impact.

Why do you want to weld to it? I'm missing something here.

Lots of reasons, only you haven't said any yet (unless the welding thing was one).

I see an oxymoron here, conservative Exocar user. :hscratch:

[cheapracer]

rough estimate on weight savings going with AL VS. Steel??

.

About 40+kgs when combined with a lighter brake package.

Thats based on 'thicker than what you would get on a race car' steel tubing of course since it's not a race car and was never going to have thin walled tubing.

[golftdibrad]

No safer than a motorcycle :huh:? errrr, you know, like sitting inside a big strong cage, strapped into the seat Vs 100% exposed limbs and no attachment to vehicle when out of control etc.....certainly seems to be some confusion there.

its low to the

You mean a Ford Focus that is designed for a certain level of comfort, weighs in at 1200kgs and therefore it's yaw rate is appreciably slower than a less compromised 600kg sporty car along with it's braking distance being considerably further giving less ability to avoid accidents in the first instance and I remind you that racing/rally cars have the air bags and the crappy 3 point inertia reel seat belts removed in favour of 4+ point harnesses and a helmet (which the majority of Exo drivers would use) I'm sure most of us have seen many race drivers walk away from some big nasties... The biggest killer in road cars are side impacts, front impact you may convince me I would be better off in a Focus but not for a side impact.

its low to the ground, lighter so it absorbs more energy than the striking vehicle. debris can hit you more easily. Unless someone wants to crash some kit cars at 30 mph in to walls its all an academic discussion anyway; it is my opinion that they are not very safe compared to a road car. As bad as a motorcycle maybe not.


Why do you want to weld to it? I'm missing something here.

Lots of reasons, only you haven't said any yet (unless the welding thing was one).

I see an oxymoron here, conservative Exocar user. :hscratch:

I can think of 100's of reasons I'd need/want to weld to the frame but its the ones I cant would be my personal worry.

I'll list some more of the reasons I wouldn't buy an Al framed kit car.
1. cant weld to it
2. cycles to failure is not infinity
3. cant weld to it
4. more sensitive to stress risers
5. cant weld to it
6. cant grind it
7. cant use cutoff wheels on it
8. cant weld to it

Like I said dude, use this gauge the market. You may be a great engineer and a good car designer. I don't know you though, so while I may buy a lotus Elise or an s2000 that uses Al in structural stuff from a large company, I will not from a start up company from some guy in China.

BTW, I've done the analysis for FSAE for equivalent strength structures in steel vs Al. In FSAE the tubes got really big and it saved like 4 lbs for an equivalent STRENGTH structure. So my stance on that was we could all stand to loose a few more than four pounds anyway. Knowing that and scaling it up for a kit car.... its still not worth it.

[AZDave]

Most all of the aluminum MC/Automotive structures I've ever seen have been some form of boxed stucture with a larger cross section. I could be wrong but at first guess (No FEA done atm) I'm not sure that just replacing round tube steel with aluminum seems to make sense to me. Again no data to back that up just a gut feeling. (Probably the same gut feeling others are having and why you seem to be getting some resistance).

Not gonna say your going down the wrong path (I've done things early on in the composites industry that people said could'nt be done and was successful and patented and have since become common practice) just build one, drive the crap out of it, if it works, sell it. :)

Only problem i see is you designed a car for a steel frame, built one to test, then switched gears. Time to market (if you test thoroughly to be safe) is going to increase substantially. My 2 cents :) (take it or leave it) You lost focus and got a little side tracked (happens to me all the time). Get the steel car out there while you have some interested potential buyers and then build the aluminum car to test.

BTW Car looks great :)

[africanstyle]

I love how EVERYTHING turns into a fight with this car... Maybe that's the reason it's taking so long to be finished. Everyone is always arguing, leaving no time for work. Why don't we just wait for him to finish it, then complain, or MAYBE, just not buy it. For those who haven't noticed, since about 2-3 weeks ago cheapracer has been relatively quiet here on the threads and what did we get? A picture of a much-closer-to-production vehicle. Screw safety and all the POTENTIAL problems for now.
Look, I am probably THE MOST INEXPERIENCED person here and all I can say is I would personally be more comfortable with steel as there is hundreds of years of experience to reinforce it. While, we are all right in our own opinion and there are some very smart people involved in this argument, I believe these topics, as painful as they are, must be resolved the hard way. For those who are willing, let cheap produce his long awaited vehicle, seeing how it is basically HIS project, and once the time comes, the flaws will be taken care of.

[cordycord]

Let's just call it "holiday stress". BTW, it's not just this car. :)

[cheapracer]

I love how EVERYTHING turns into a fight with this car... Maybe that's the reason it's taking so long to be finished. Everyone is always arguing, leaving no time for work. Why don't we just wait for him to finish it, then complain, or MAYBE, just not buy it. For those who haven't noticed, since about 2-3 weeks ago cheapracer has been relatively quiet here on the threads and what did we get? A picture of a much-closer-to-production vehicle. Screw safety and all the POTENTIAL problems for now.
.

I moved factories and the net is limited here is why I am quiet actually.

There are many reasons why it's taking longer than I would like but ask yourself why isn't there a bunch of people doing it out of China?

There is no corner parts stores here as you know them, there is no wrecking yards as you know them, there is no Harbour Freight ( I have built every special tool I need, even made the 3 x 3" roller dies.). I have watched a number of Foreigners fail here and get severely taken, trust me, it ain't easy doing what I'm doing here.

But anyway, sure when I finish "complain" away :hitfan:

AZDave, the decision was made a long time ago to make them in aluminium hence the generally larger sizes of tubing used, not that they look too bad either. As I have said elswhere though a jig is a jig is a jig, doesn't care what material is put into it and it comes out the other end the same shape steel or other. Someone mentioned that aluminium chassis was not acceptable in Australia for example.

Brad, I think you should be more worried about your own car's issues than mine. By the way, didn't you disassemble a "safe road car" to build a "not very safe" in comparison Exo from it? As for your FSAE comment, you may have read things I have written in this thread but understanding and seeing are 2 different things. This is a road sports car, not a race car - something you just don't seem to get along with that I am an Australian IN China, not "a Guy from China".

.

[golftdibrad]

Brad, I think you should be more worried about your own car's issues than mine. By the way, didn't you disassemble a "safe road car" to build a "not very safe" in comparison Exo from it? As for your FSAE comment, you may have read things I have written in this thread but understanding and seeing are 2 different things. This is a road sports car, not a race car - something you just don't seem to get along with that I am an Australian IN China, not "a Guy from China".

.

You know dude, I was just trying to be helpful. I've even stood up for you on both the board AND in pm's before. It is now clear to me that you just like to argue and prove people wrong.
You are also putting words in my mouth, I suggest you go back and re-read my posts.

If your going to resort to personal attacks acting like a grade schooler then I'm out.

This thread has taught me a few things:
1. You have what I call 'cocky engineer syndrome' something I see all to often in my line of work. People with CES tend to be crappy engineers in my experience.
2. You have lost yet another potential customer due to you bad attitude, and IMHO a bad engineering decision. What other bad decisions have you made? I'm not wasting my ten grand and 200 hours to find out. BTW if your not making a racecar you should change your s/n.
3. I do not want to buy you a beer.

Feel free to reply and edit your posts multiple times because I'm ubscribing to this mess.

[BagD72Chevy]

So a friend sent me this thread and all I can say is wow.

Cheapracer- 1-you have yet to make a solid position on why you have chosen to use aluminum. The strength to weight ratio of aluminum vs steel is about the same, so if your vehicle is not overbuilt using steel and is properly designed the weight difference is negligible.
2-Have you taken a look at an OEM aluminum subframe? In the auto repair business NOBODY repairs them. Some people may, but you are not suppose to. The members that construct the subframe usually have some kind of webbing on the inside.
3-Once complete and properly heat treated it can't be modified. You definitelly can't weld to it, and I personally wouldn't drill a hole to rivet or screw something. Because that'll be where it cracks.
4- I applaud the idea, and I would love to see an aluminum exo-car. But it has to be perfect. Every bolt, brake line, clutch line, seat, belt, light, and wire have to have a tab to mount and be properly located. You can drill these tabs for mounting stuff, but it has to be very clearly understood that under no circumstances should an end user drill a hole in a structural tube. It has to be further understood that if any impact occurs to the chassis the entire thing should be replaced. You can't cut and weld a new tube in without having it heat treated again.

I'm not trying to attack you, just making a point. It appears you chose aluminum because you think it is lighter. Or possibly because you're smarter than every other person that has failed. Maybe it's the bling factor? And in 2 yrs a nasty oxidized chassis is gonna look sweet. Unless someone likes polishing.....alot. You can't paint it, imagine the weight...remember the space shuttle?

Now, why have you chosen aluminum? I truly hope you're the prodigal son who can pull this off and prove everyone wrong. I've wanted to do an aluminum car for a while, but the risks turned me away.

Also how are you going to address the suspension mounting points? A bolt through an Al tab will wobble the hole over time. Maybe pressed in sleeve like an motorcycle?? Just curious.

-Ryan
BTW- I ride, and I would much rather seperate from an aluminum frame than get splintered to death by the sharp shards of what used to be a chassis. I own a Honda 900rr that hit a dump truck at 140mph and they swept the frame up, and vacuumed the rider. Even at less speed aluminum loves to tear.

[BagD72Chevy]

Properly designed for what? I am building road based sports cars intended to last a long time

Then why are using aluminum?

[cheapracer]

You know dude, I was just trying to be helpful.
You are also putting words in my mouth, I suggest you go back and re-read my posts.
.


Here's your posts and theres no confusion on my part,

"Yikes, I for one would be out when it comes to getting an aluminum space frame from China, besides for all the reasons of it being an aluminum space frame"

"I will not from a start up company from some guy in China".

I guess you are a cheapskate who goes around buying the cheapest goods you can find, often from China, and then when they break you whine and bitch about "cheap Chinese crap" that you were happy to pay next to nothing for but unwilling to admit that you are to blame.

I wrote this recently...

I didn't know what beautiful clothes were until I came to this country and that started to open my eyes to a few things.

China has the best standards of anything you want in the world - it also has the worst. The worst are cheap so what does an entrepreneur do? He buys the cheapest fastest moving stuff he can get and China then gets it's reputation but it's the fault of the entrepreneur and the cheapskates who continue to buy it. Most people here wear reasonable to high quality clothes for example, not the crap, single wide stitched, 20cent T shirts that go overseas.

There is a standard called ISO 9000 that a Company must have to get an export licence, most of these are genuine though some are under the table through relationship... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000

Again the quality comes down to price, example - you see a US made lathe for say $10K and then you check out a Chinese export lathe for $7K and it's every bit as good but then you notice the same company has a $4K Chinese market lathe also and you start convincing yourself that you can get the job done with that $4K lathe. Later you discover it's a cheap lathe but you knew that but were blinded by greed at the time so suddenly in your denial to accept blame you label it a "cheap Chinese crap lathe and I should have bought the US made one" but in fact you could have saved $3K and got the $7K one you should have. So who's at fault?

The toys and similar things are just greed from both sides, why hasn't the US company got a QC man in place at the Chinese company? It's just lazy and greedy - the US company for management costs and the Chinese company for using cheaper products because they aren't being watched. (Oh, then on the TV they blamed the US designer's specifications, hey but if your willing to poison kids then your sure to tell the truth especially about using 2 very similar chemicals, the safe one costing 7000 per drum and the dangerous one 2000.....).

I have a 4" angle grinder bought local here for $24 that has been worked daily for 2 years and I would think over a 1000 discs and it still runs perfectly, I remember a $19.99 one that I bought at Supercheap (very large Auto Parts Store chain) in Oz some years back that lasted about 10 discs.

The problem isn't here so much as it seems to be that Western consumers are willing to continue to buy according to price first, take a chance on the quality (but then whine about it when bitten).

People would be shocked to learn just what is made here and, specific to our interests, just how much of China you are driving daily but its not something manufacturers are in a hurry to let consumers know. By the way, China (mainland) isn't as high in the electronic stakes as you may think, the majority comes from HK and Taiwan.

I'll repeat it again, I am an Australian in China making an Australian designed and QC'ed product in China.

[Chet]

"I'll repeat it again, I am an Australian in China making an Australian designed and QC'ed product in China."

Does that mean that your car has or will pass the required Australian frame tests?

Chet

[cheapracer]

So a friend sent me this thread and all I can say is wow.

Cheapracer- 1-you have yet to make a solid position on why you have chosen to use aluminum. The strength to weight ratio of aluminum vs steel is about the same, so if your vehicle is not overbuilt using steel and is properly designed the weight difference is negligible.
2-Have you taken a look at an OEM aluminum subframe? In the auto repair business NOBODY repairs them. Some people may, but you are not suppose to. The members that construct the subframe usually have some kind of webbing on the inside.
3-Once complete and properly heat treated it can't be modified. You definitelly can't weld to it, and I personally wouldn't drill a hole to rivet or screw something. Because that'll be where it cracks.
4- I applaud the idea, and I would love to see an aluminum exo-car. But it has to be perfect. Every bolt, brake line, clutch line, seat, belt, light, and wire have to have a tab to mount and be properly located. You can drill these tabs for mounting stuff, but it has to be very clearly understood that under no circumstances should an end user drill a hole in a structural tube. It has to be further understood that if any impact occurs to the chassis the entire thing should be replaced. You can't cut and weld a new tube in without having it heat treated again.

I'm not trying to attack you, just making a point. It appears you chose aluminum because you think it is lighter. Or possibly because you're smarter than every other person that has failed. Maybe it's the bling factor? And in 2 yrs a nasty oxidized chassis is gonna look sweet. Unless someone likes polishing.....alot. You can't paint it, imagine the weight...remember the space shuttle?

Now, why have you chosen aluminum? I truly hope you're the prodigal son who can pull this off and prove everyone wrong. I've wanted to do an aluminum car for a while, but the risks turned me away.

Also how are you going to address the suspension mounting points? A bolt through an Al tab will wobble the hole over time. Maybe pressed in sleeve like an motorcycle?? Just curious.

-Ryan
BTW- I ride, and I would much rather seperate from an aluminum frame than get splintered to death by the sharp shards of what used to be a chassis. I own a Honda 900rr that hit a dump truck at 140mph and they swept the frame up, and vacuumed the rider. Even at less speed aluminum loves to tear.

1/ The frame is overbuilt. I was a FIA scrutineer in a previous time and before me my Dad was as well for Historics and the amount of frame cracks I have seen especially on nickel welded chrome moly is awful and I wanted an overbuilt frame for very long life even at the cost of weight - more than 30kgs in fact.
FWIW, almost all racing/rallying sedans in Australia used extensive large diameter aluminium space frames/roll cages throughout the 70's and 80's up until the Group B rallying debarcle after which you could only use steel. Of all these years and cars I was around in those days including my own and later on, I never saw a cracked cage or ever heard of one and sedans give cages/frames quite some movement/stress.
Steel had the advantage in open wheelers that you could use a smaller diameter and the legal minimum diameter for aluminium was simply too bulky.

2/ A number of people repair bike frames actually and again your talking about a different design philosophy, bikes cut every ounce they can everywhere they can.

3/ Again, what is the reason for welding to it - every time you buy a car is the first thing you do "oh now what can I weld to this"? and it's great you wouldn't drill a hole or rivet to it - why would you? Brad says I want to argue, sorry but it's you lot who are pulling arguments out of mid air. I figure most will just bolt some wheels on, bolt a motor in, wire in the ECU and drive it - no welding, holes or rivets required. Not too sure why Brad things that will take "200 hours" to accomplish by the way.

4/ Any replacement chassis that is required will be at a price cheaper than what a Lotus dealer would charge you for just looking at a Lotus parts book. Seriously, have any of you guys ever bought or priced Lotus parts?

Shock bolts pass through 20mm x 60mm long tubes, one either side of the shock bush for the rears (120mm bearing) and one of the same for the fronts with a 5mm plate on the other side (65mm bearing) - whats your verdict, elongation problems or not?



Now please tell me about "everyone else who has failed" that your comparing my effort too? You have some case examples I'm sure.....

[cheapracer]

"I'll repeat it again, I am an Australian in China making an Australian designed and QC'ed product in China."

Does that mean that your car has or will pass the required Australian frame tests?

Chet

It will pass but that wasn't my point, I am acutely aware of the impression from some of the "Made In China" tag and my point is that it's not a Chinese design and that QC will be wholly under me - me being a person who understands what a Western person seeks in terms of standards.

[Crazyhippy]

I refuse to pass judgement on this car until i see it in the flesh. I dont have a problem with it being made in China. I dont have a problem with it being Aluminum.

I have (potentially) a HUGE problem w/ crap. Cheapracer has shown thru other posts a far better understanding of engineering (Suspension design especially) than most people. I dont think he will go thru hell designing the perfect (compromise of) suspension, and bolt it onto an inferior (and more expensive) frame.

Those worried about fatigue cycles are worrying about 25 years and 200,000 miles from now. If you need to, consider replacing the chassis (at the bargain price afforded by chineese construction) every 100,000 miles. In kit car years, how long is 100K miles? 20 owners?

So far the engineering has been as sound as any i've seen. Lets see the finished product. Until then, this is all hot air (hot letters?)

So how long till one shows in Phoenix?:thumb2:

[Conquest351]

The aluminum vs. steel frame debate is pretty much a pointless argument. He has already agreed to make them in steel or aluminum. When you place an order for one, just specify what material you want the frame made from. Not a big deal.

I believe he's offering the aluminum frame for those people who are from the same school the ExoCar was founded in. That's the school of "Less Weight = Go Faster!"

If it saves some weight and you'll use it as a weekend street cruiser, then get the aluminum frame. You can get it polished and make it all pretty and use it as an awesome show car. The steel frame will probably be for those who are using it as an every week track monster. Every weekend the car sees extensive track use and extensive stresses.

I know the first few cars coming over are going to be test cars. IE people test them out, drive the piss out of them, and whatever breaks gets replaced FREE OF CHARGE. Now, that may scare people, but honestly, if something's going to break, it'll do it while you're hard in a corner or hard on the brakes. Most likely it'll be on a track anyway. If you're pushing it that hard on the street, damn. LOL This is why the first few buyers have committed to this type of test car. They all understand the risks involved and are getting the cars for a friggin STEAL! Not to mention replacement parts for free. LOL Yes, completely free including shipping from China. Mark (Cheapracer) is on the right path here as far as I'm concerned.

Also, as to the comment about Fran using aluminum chassis...
I've been to Fran's shop and I'll tell you there is nothing more beautiful than seeing 10 GT40's, SL-C's, P4's, and Lola's in different stages of construction with these aluminum monocoques sitting around. Absolutely beautiful. Brings a tear to any real car guy's eye.

Laters,

Brian

[AZDave]

So how long till one shows in Phoenix?:thumb2:

Buy one so I can come see it :)

[cheapracer]

Those worried about fatigue cycles are worrying about 25 years and 200,000 miles from now.


So how long till one shows in Phoenix?

Don't confuse this thread with facts thanks, I won't stand for it I tell ya.

Not sure but trying, do you know how big America is? Why it would nearly fill up Texas!
.

[Crazyhippy]

Not sure but trying, do you know how big America is? Why it would nearly fill up Texas!
.

Serious LOL.

If you need a semi skilled driver w/ a garage attached to be a Sales rep:thumb2::coolnana:

[cheapracer]

Not that I was looking for it nor are we really talking about it but I did just notice one of DaveW's comments elsewhere (Dave is a well known ex Lotus engineer) about 4130 so i thought i would share it out of interest..

--------------

4130 DOES NOT offers a stiffness advantages over mild steel. Sorry Guys, but alot of people fall into that trap. 4130 has a higher yield strength.

Material Science 101

Take a 1 inch x .06 wall tube, mild steel and the same size higher strength steel tube and clamp them to the work bench so they over hang. Add the same Wt to the ends of both tubes. They will both deflect the same amount. They have the same stiffness.
The advantage is in yield strength. You can crash at higher speeds i.e. “loads” before the higher strength tube will give way.
Dave W

[BagD72Chevy]

Steel had the advantage in open wheelers that you could use a smaller diameter and the legal minimum diameter for aluminium was simply too bulky.

This is what I'm referring to. Most racing organizations make it completely ridiculous to use aluminum if at all. They have reasons for doing so.

2/ A number of people repair bike frames actually and again your talking about a different design philosophy, bikes cut every ounce they can everywhere they can.

I wasn't refering to bike frame, but car subframes. Many GM's use aluminum front subframes on the FWD platforms. The insurance companies heavily look down upon people repairing them.

3/ Again, what is the reason for welding to it - every time you buy a car is the first thing you do "oh now what can I weld to this"? and it's great you wouldn't drill a hole or rivet to it - why would you? Brad says I want to argue, sorry but it's you lot who are pulling arguments out of mid air. I figure most will just bolt some wheels on, bolt a motor in, wire in the ECU and drive it - no welding, holes or rivets required. Not too sure why Brad things that will take "200 hours" to accomplish by the way.

I'm not arguing, I'm just looking at how complete of a "kit" it is. So brake lines will already be run, the harness run and tied down, etc. Dropping an engine, and bolting wheels is an 8 hour day for a parapalegic, not sure how he came up with 200 hrs.

4/ Any replacement chassis that is required will be at a price cheaper than what a Lotus dealer would charge you for just looking at a Lotus parts book. Seriously, have any of you guys ever bought or priced Lotus parts?

My point was that if you sell more cars than anticipated (b/c it is a cool concept) there won't be extra parts. So just make sure to balance your production schedule.

Overall I think it will pretty cool, got any pics/drawings?

[cheapracer]

My point was that if you sell more cars than anticipated (b/c it is a cool concept) there won't be extra parts. So just make sure to balance your production schedule.

Overall I think it will pretty cool, got any pics/drawings?

I am in no hurry, the "Made in China" tag is against me and the first low target numbers will be kept at that and those people will be very well cared for, I do not need any of those first toe dippers upset if I want to be around for a longer time.

One of my analogies is that if 10 cars came from Japan and one had a problem one might say "wow, thats unusual" but 10 from China and one has a problem the response would be "Typical Chinese crap".

I will start some test driving in the next few days and I have my video camera in my bag ready and waiting.

I've been doing the spring selection thing the last few days and anyone who has been through that knows what I mean. I got a bit lucky on the rears and got a happy starting place quickly with the added bonus that they are off the shelf items with options on rates but the fronts are giving me some headaches .

[cordycord]

Less talk more action! :) Let's see a walk-around video of the car, and a few in-car videos. Take us on an "Exo" tour of the Chinese countryside, already!

BTW, I have some of my products manufactured in China--see www.readyramp.com . My manufacturer builds to ISO9002 standards (among others), has his own engineering staff, test facilities and mould-making area. At the end of the assembly line is usually a girl with a yellow "QC" arm band on, holding digital calipers. Moral of the story--find the right manufacturer, and it doesn't matter where you make the product.

What I'm afraid of is that the Chinese manufacturer will make exactly what cheapracer designed. :) :)

[golftdibrad]

I said I wasn't going to post again, but alas I feel questions have not been answered

Not that I was looking for it nor are we really talking about it but I did just notice one of DaveW's comments elsewhere (Dave is a well known ex Lotus engineer) about 4130 so i thought i would share it out of interest..

--------------

4130 DOES NOT offers a stiffness advantages over mild steel. Sorry Guys, but alot of people fall into that trap. 4130 has a higher yield strength.

Material Science 101

Take a 1 inch x .06 wall tube, mild steel and the same size higher strength steel tube and clamp them to the work bench so they over hang. Add the same Wt to the ends of both tubes. They will both deflect the same amount. They have the same stiffness.
The advantage is in yield strength. You can crash at higher speeds i.e. “loads” before the higher strength tube will give way.
Dave W

Thanks for pointing out my error that Dave was quick to correct on the other board, and thanks to dave for correcting me. my response:
ah yes, thanks for pointing that out. I confused myself last night.

It had been a long evening of research and play and made a mistake.



I'm not arguing, I'm just looking at how complete of a "kit" it is. So brake lines will already be run, the harness run and tied down, etc. Dropping an engine, and bolting wheels is an 8 hour day for a parapalegic, not sure how he came up with 200 hrs.



200 hours is in between numbers that manufactures quote and builders report in my experience so far.

If its is shipped as a roller with brakes and most of the wires and coolant lines run a moderately competent guy could wire in and mount an engine in a weekend easily.


I believe he's offering the aluminum frame for those people who are from the same school the ExoCar was founded in. That's the school of "Less Weight = Go Fas

Brian

That is my core question, that has not been answered. besides all the issues i have with not being able to weld the frame, fatigue and what not....
At the end of the day, an aluminum space frame and a steel space frame optimized for the same stiffness will weigh virtually the exact same thing. Now one has to account for the fact that tubing is not available in fractional thickness and sizes that will allow for an exact same weight chassis to be produced, but as an academic discussion it is important.

in engineer to win, (ISBN 9780879381868) page 45 Mr. Smith talks about the modulus of elasticity to specific gravity ratio of various materials. the rather surprising result is that with steel equal to a ratio of 1.00:
Spruce is .99
magnesium is 1.54
carbon fiber (sans epoxy matrix) is 12.84
Aluminum is 1.01

An I quote.... ".... weight for weight, we could build just as stiff a structure from either wood (aircraft grade spruce in the direction of the wood grain) or aluminum as we can from steel"

furtermore, "Of course the ratio of stiffness to weight is far from being the full story in the selection of a structural material. Many factors must be considered, including cost, joinability, fabricatability, behavior at high and low temperatures, repairability, resistance to corrosion, and above all strength and resistance to fatigue.(emphasis added)"

Knowing this I as an end user feel that in a car such as this Aluminum is not a good choice for the frame.

It will pass but that wasn't my point, I am acutely aware of the impression from some of the "Made In China" tag and my point is that it's not a Chinese design and that QC will be wholly under me - me being a person who understands what a Western person seeks in terms of standards.

I buy lots of stuff made in china. some things i have high expectations of and some I do not. You keep mentioning QC... So answer us, your potential customers these two questions:
1. Why Aluminum for the frame? If I see good reasoning behind the decision I can be on board with it. All you have done so far is defend your decision with no facts to back up the choice. Give me some reasons, hell they don't even have to be good. I just want some justification for your potential customers as to the decision making process behind your material choice.
2. Is/will your company be ISO certified.

-Brad

[Edward500]

Hello Cheapracer, its great that your making progress on the car.

I was wondering if you put in any thought about a windshield for the car?

[trboboost91]

i think im going to get started on designing my own frame made from
aircraft grade spruce!:D

[Fran Hall RCR]

Frank Costin built the Costin Natham monocoque form marine grade plywood...extremely fast car that was a real giant killer....

I have a pal that makes all the wings for his formula cars from wood....he also builds commercial stunt planes and hydroplanes too, so he is quite into the whole wood and lightweight thing....

[trboboost91]

he he you said wood.......:bwhip: sorry i had to. :D

and you can't forget the general making the floor boards of vettes out of balsa wood i believe it was.

think ill swing down to the local home depot!:coolnana:

[cheapracer]

BTW, I have some of my products manufactured in China--see www.readyramp.com . My manufacturer builds to ISO9002 standards (among others), has his own engineering staff, test facilities and mould-making area.




You have patents on a ladder/ramp with hinges??? I'm going to freepatentsonline next to have a look at why!

Yeah your Mate is probably a start up, most of the Chinese crap comes from ex State factories that have been overtaken by the same managers as before and all they have is a quantity mentality. Bit different when it's your own money and you want people to come back again and help you pay off your debt.

[cheapracer]

he he you said wood.......:bwhip: sorry i had to. :D

and you can't forget the general making the floor boards of vettes out of balsa wood i believe it was.

:

You may enjoy this...

http://www.joeharmondesign.com/

[cordycord]

You have patents on a ladder/ramp with hinges??? I'm going to freepatentsonline next to have a look at why!

Yeah your Mate is probably a start up, most of the Chinese crap comes from ex State factories that have been overtaken by the same managers as before and all they have is a quantity mentality. Bit different when it's your own money and you want people to come back again and help you pay off your debt.

Yes, seven utility patents. I'm averaging 1-2 broken ramps per 1,000 units, so in this case "Chinese crap" is hardly the case. Out of the broken ramps, 1/2 of the breakage is user-generated.

[cheapracer]

Yeah I read it all. I'm amazed you could get a patent with so many similar ideas out there, even your patent has 30 references.

Instructing people to step up onto a truck via an unstable esky seems a bit odd to me?

[cordycord]

Yeah I read it all. I'm amazed you could get a patent with so many similar ideas out there, even your patent has 30 references.

Instructing people to step up onto a truck via an unstable esky seems a bit odd to me?

That's why I don't recommend it. :)

[cheapracer]

That's why I don't recommend it. :)


May I suggest you modify the pictures on your website before someone does it and gets the idea to take action against you?

[cheapracer]

Mostly I am happy with my position in life but being in a different culture means I do envy you Guys at Xmas time being with your own and family to appreciate the deeper meaning and good spirit of this time.

My heartfelt wishes to all of you and your families,

Merry Christmas!!

:party::partyon::yrock::wave2:

[cordycord]

The last time I was in China (Dongguan), our hotel had a full-blown Christmas scene and a HUGE banner over it saying "Merry Christmas". Sure, it was a hotel for U.S. and Euro businessmen, but still...

Nowadays here in the U.S. it's difficult to even find a Hallmark card, store or advertisement with the word "Christmas" on it, as it's becoming no politically correct to state "the reason for the season".

[cordycord]

May I suggest you modify the pictures on your website before someone does it and gets the idea to take action against you?

There's a list of do's and don'ts on the ramp. Don't ride up and don't walk up are two of them...If it's stupid or dangerous, don't use a ReadyRamp is the last one.

[Crazyhippy]

The last time I was in China (Dongguan), our hotel had a full-blown Christmas scene and a HUGE banner over it saying "Merry Christmas". Sure, it was a hotel for U.S. and Euro businessmen, but still...

Nowadays here in the U.S. it's difficult to even find a Hallmark card, store or advertisement with the word "Christmas" on it, as it's becoming no politically correct to state "the reason for the season".

"Feliz Navidad" however...:run:

[africanstyle]

Cheap, any pre-2010 updates? Also, I've been wondering if an ETA was in sight. Thanks!

[cheapracer]

Yesterday I increased the brake master cylinder bore size (travel a bit long and light) and today changing steering rack for a faster action as well as adding a bit more lock and then will be ready for some more testing - if it stops bloody raining!!

As soon as I am happy with driving a full effort will be made to get 3 chassis to the States where they will have their engines fitted for further (and public) testing.

[Conquest351]

Sounding good!!!

[cheapracer]

Didn't stop raining and some bastards kidnapped me last night, took me to a Thai restaurant and forced me to eat great food, drink lots of beer and talk to hot woman while celebrating New Year!

It's a desperate situation, I lost 2 phone numbers!

[Crazyhippy]

We need some more pics. Either the afformentioned hot women, or the car. I'll let you choose:king:

[cheapracer]

Getting there slowly, drove it again today and immediately pulled it apart again.

Bit unhappy with the steering feel so making some mods there and a bit unhappy with the front spring rates.

When I'm happy I'll chuck the bodywork on and take some more snaps on the road in amongst other cars to put it into perspective.

[Conquest351]

Sounding good man. Keep us updated!!

[cheapracer]

Been driving, well sliding all around the Factory this morning (it's a big factory) and happy enough to take it out to some back roads I know tomorrow.

Still a few niggly problems but none that aren't really expected at this stage.

[Conquest351]

Must have video!!! LOL

[cheapracer]

No good today, my Lady is going to America on Saturday and she wanted me to spend the day with her today. Back to it tomorrow though.

[Conquest351]

No good today, my Lady is going to America on Saturday and she wanted me to spend the day with her today. Back to it tomorrow though.

She coming to Texas? LOL

[cheapracer]

Wow, who knew that with a Sony Handycam that the green light means off and the red light means on? :hscratch: :huh:

Anyone like to see half an hour of workshop concrete and peoples shoes?

Guess it's lucky I took a camera with me as well, mind you I only took 1 shot because I had all that video footage.......

I will mention I forgot to put the lower sides on before the shot so I photoshopped them in but the rest is real.

[Conquest351]

Awesome! How's it running? Did you get everything sorted out yet?

[cheapracer]

Getting close, need to get some fast road work in and the clutch is a bit heavy.

As I mentioned my Lady is going to the USA (thats in America, next to Texas) tomorrow and I'm spending some time with her.

[trboboost91]

i, personally, am just on the edge of my seat to see it in person.
hopefully the trip won't be too far.

[cordycord]

Live axle or IRS? You've teased quite a bit with the ubiquitous side shot, but no suspension, upright, steering, pedal box, shocks, etceteras. Now that your boss is out of town :), perhaps you could learn how to work that camera of yours...

[cheapracer]

The market isn't ready for my weird suspensions so a standard'ish 4 corner independent it is. The weird stuff comes next model (throw to a mad scientists laugh...).

Theres not much in the way of secrets, well maybe a little trick here and there, fairly mainstream setup, OEM Daihatsu Charade modded rack and pinion, pedal box, VW Jetta uprights and brakes - stuff thats common to find.

A few ugly bits I will deal with in the coming days before all 'round shots - people only see what they want to so have to be careful, it still is a prototype, I'm sure you remember how ugly some of your ramps were in the development process compared to how fine they look now.

[cordycord]

The market isn't ready for my weird suspensions so a standard'ish 4 corner independent it is. The weird stuff comes next model (throw to a mad scientists laugh...).

Theres not much in the way of secrets, well maybe a little trick here and there, fairly mainstream setup, OEM Daihatsu Charade modded rack and pinion, pedal box, VW Jetta uprights and brakes - stuff thats common to find.

A few ugly bits I will deal with in the coming days before all 'round shots - people only see what they want to so have to be careful, it still is a prototype, I'm sure you remember how ugly some of your ramps were in the development process compared to how fine they look now.

Half the fun is the process. If you lift the veil on a completed vehicle (ta da!), there's little fun to that. And the engine...?

[FIAROADSTER]

I think we should kidnap his "lady friend" and hold her as ransom for a completed, production ready car. Maybe thats why he won't say exactly where she is, except not in Texas.

[Conquest351]

I think we should kidnap his "lady friend" and hold her as ransom for a completed, production ready car. Maybe thats why he won't say exactly where she is, except not in Texas.

No, she's here. I have her Mark. She says "Hi" and everything is OK... For now. You have about 2 weeks left sir...


LOL

[cheapracer]

No, she's here. I have her Mark. She says "Hi" and everything is OK... For now. You have about 2 weeks left sir...


LOL

If the ransom is a lot of money or else you will give her back, I'll pay it!!

[cheapracer]

I think we should kidnap his "lady friend" and hold her as ransom for a completed, production ready car. Maybe thats why he won't say exactly where she is, except not in Texas.

Of course she's not in Texas, she only has an American Visa.

[Conquest351]

Well "Texas is a whole 'nother country" according to the advertisements to promote tourism here, but we're really cool people. LOL

[africanstyle]

OK guys, especially Cheap, we need that video... no more fooling around... I wanna see some action! Even if it is three feet of movement, a walk-around would be nice to (maybe you could give us some specs too).

P.S. Conquest is completely right!:D

[FIAROADSTER]

Two weeks?!
We have an expression in our Cobra club.
When will your engine be done? "two weeks!"
When is your car coming out of the paint shop? "two weeks!"
When will your car be done? "two weeks!"
You see the pattern here, two weeks is a completely indeterminite time period.
Never allow someone to say anything will happen in two weeks, he's lying!