Why so few in the United States?

[Gage]

For weeks I have been searching and studying every available kit car and exocar on the market in the States and around the world. In the USA, If I see another Cobra replica I'm going to be sick.

In the USA, there are many kit car manufacturers, but it seems that for the most part they serve the rich. Most kits are what a middle class working man would consider very expensive. However, in the UK it seems like affordable kit cars and their makers are more common than grocery stores!

Stateside, kit cars and/or Exocars that are in the 10 to 20 k price bracket, are rare, or better said, nearly non existent. It is easy to understand why.
Profit drives product creation and sustainment. It isn't worth years of effort, design, fabrication, and redesign to produce something for sale to the public that you only make a couple of thousand dollars on.

However, an Exocar is a concept that should make it easier. Very little bodywork is needed, if any. We need a frame that looks fantastic, brakes, seats, an engine, wheels and tires, a few other things.

So little weight is actually required to make a properly designed exocar move like a Porche 911. It is rediculous. A metal frame, vaguely in the shape of a Mini Cooper, equipped with a Motorcyle engine and weighing 950lbs, can hit zero to sixty in well under 3 seconds. That same metal frame could be stretched out to look like a little F1 race car with no body work, and achieve the same performance.

Why is it such an uncommon product as of yet?

Preconceptions.
Trends.
Profit Margins.
Laws governing automotive vehicle registration that ignore motorcycles.
Ignorance, as in lack of knowldege by the general public.

We could elaborate on all of those...

I'm just ranting a bit I guess. There aren't many good concepts available in the country I live in, adapted to drivelines in my backyard. I need a shop, welding skills, and government regulation that allow four wheeled vehicles to have the same freedome that motorcycle's have.

:run:

[cheapracer]

. However, in the UK it seems like affordable kit cars and their makers are more common than grocery stores!

However, an Exocar is a concept that should make it easier. Very little bodywork is needed, if any. We need a frame that looks fantastic, brakes, seats, an engine, wheels and tires, a few other things.

:

Some good questions.

Correct me if I'm wrong but i believe in the UK the donor car's license stays with that car forever even if it's wrapped in a whole new skin (kit car) so the process of licensing is a breeze - apparently. This makes cheap kit cars more viable than scratch built (in the eyes of the law) new cars.

Australia is very hard to get a kit car registered (depends on the attitude of the public servant and which State too) unless it is a standard Locost chassis which is on their records or you are a member of a Hot Rod club and even then you only get to drive in organised Hot Rod events/outings. For the rest it's a nitemare, even a chassis torsional twist test is done depending on engine cylinders. (what a joke, you can have a turbo 500hp 4cyl. and it only has to be half the torsion of a 200hp V8, some scale to work by :nervous:). it's best to go to your local Guy and explain what your doing and go through it with him as you build it - without pi ss ing him off about it all the time that is.

The Exo Cars - well heres a secret, I tried to make an Exo Car in the 80's as I had a lot of friends who raced Off Road Buggies and saw no reason why i couldn't shape a frame in the silhouette of a Ferrari, cheap, strong and light. I did many drawings on paper but it never looked right - maybe just the times were wrong for that styling? besides my limited drawing ability! One of my Mate had his buggy road registered and it was bloody fast but a bit embarrassing to be seen in - most of the pointed fingers were of laughter, not "Wow"!!

Anyway, credit where credits due, Ariel have broken the mould and we who follow need to show that respect, but as you border on, why aren't they easy to make? Why aren't they cheap? They have nothing - literally, even Atom say it in their own ads "no stereo, no windscreen, no carpets...." then why are they so darn expensive?????

The Superlite proves it too, a great car made at a realistic price.

I kind of think Brammo saw this in part and after gearing up a nice little business, sold it at a tidy profit - that in it's self is not an uncommon business method anyway.

[Karlo]

I think it is matter of time before the tide changes here in States. Popularity will increase!!!!

[bolus]

Its partly because of the boring mentality of the typical American. I still get comments about my Mini about how it is totally unsafe because it isn't the size of a SUV. I see people ogle over a new sedans that have just come out. Are you kidding me? It looks like every other 4 door car for sale?? The vast majority of Americans want giant cookie cutter bland cars. An exocar is too radical, we fear the different I think

[LexTalonis]

Spending the last few weeks looking into the MEV Rocket, I am all too familiar with The UK's SVA requirements, most of which seem fairly reasonable. In the states though each state has different requirements and it is damn near impossible to get a straight answer as to what exactly is needed. If I was such a stubborn bastard, I would have given up on an Exo kit myself, but instead I just spend all day online trying to figure everything out :)

Sean

[devilman2075]

eventhough this thread is old and dug up, ill comment my thoughts

americans as a whole probably seem to busy or not enthusiastic enough to build a car. now im american so dont say im profiling but its what it seems. my whole meaning and reason of wanting an exo car is basically broke down to a few simple facts

1. im not a hotrod type of guy, but ive wanted a car to call my own, something i can tell people they cant buy in a store, something i built myself

2. speed and handleing....there is not a car i will find in western pa that i wont smoke the doors off with an exocar and an engine with under 200hp

3. i like building things, but i couldnt throw 20grand into my 25grand civic ex and make it nearly close to an exocar

4. the exotic styling and unique looks of the exocars will surely break necks

5. ive been thinking alot about building cars like this to basically resell to willing customers

some people cant avoid buying a car from a dealer something that will start when they turn the key and some people cant help but drop too much money into a cars performance to make it what a marginally faster 3000lb car? ive told so many people i can build them a faster car with a stock motor for under 20g and they dont know how to react

i know my plan is to frequently attend local car shows and see reactions, guage interest and always always have my current exocar available for sale

[Chadillac]

I'm hoping that once word gets out about these cars, popularity will increase exponentially. Everyone that has seen my car loves it. I think that too many people still think of kit cars as old ponitac fieros with ferrari body kits on them.

If my hood is done being painted by today, and as of Wednesday it is suppose to be, I'll be taking the SL-R to a car show that is actually right across the street from my house. I'll let you guys know what reactions I get and how people like the car.

[Pagester]

I think that too many people still think of kit cars as old ponitac fieros with ferrari body kits on them.


I completely agree

[wumpus]

Its partly because of the boring mentality of the typical American. I still get comments about my Mini about how it is totally unsafe because it isn't the size of a SUV. I see people ogle over a new sedans that have just come out. Are you kidding me? It looks like every other 4 door car for sale?? The vast majority of Americans want giant cookie cutter bland cars. An exocar is too radical, we fear the different I think

There is much truth to this, but I think that Americans want not "giant cookie cutter bland cars" but assurance that the monthly payments will not go in vain.

I think a low-cost, (relatively) low-build-time car can be huge. This type of thing allows many Americans to both have the driving appliance (as mocked by enthusiast boards) that gets them to work on time, every day, and have the weekend rocket.

I don't know the percentage of factory five GTMs that get finished, but as much as that checks all the WANT buttons, I can't image ever finishing that car. An exo... is something else. You don't have an interior to sweat. You don't have to deal with pinholes in the fiberglass. You don't have to deal with anything that doesn't make you go (very, very fast).

I honestly think the final piece of the puzzle will be when the sonic 7 is released with DISI mounting points and shifting parts. The sonic 7 plus focus parts is a beast. Of course, in this world of 911s and atoms, it is a mortal beast. Add the DISI, and you have something else. A base honda or Ecotech might be a perfect fit for most drivers of the atom. The problem is that most *buyers* of the atom want a perfect fit for Michael Shumaker (I wouldn't have come up with this unless I weren't guilty myself). Sure, it wouldn't be that bad to upgrade the engine (or build a second sonic 7), but I suspect that each driver has to shoot for the moon, then find a 4psi blow-off valve to keep them alive.

Just a thought about "what Americans want" (what would I know: I drive a boring midsize with a stick).

[cheapracer]

I assure you I ain't building a car that will be popular, just happens to be what I want to build. If I built a 1300cc, 100 hp sporty car that didn't look too radical and had a great sound system I would sell many more than an Exo. Scion anybody?

People are actually very, very conservative although they will tell you otherwise, Toyota's are the biggest sellers in the world and look at their exciting model lineup over the years.

[devilman2075]

as i agree i still want to think a turn key drive off the lot model is what would appeal to most americans, like ive said i plan on building mine and taking it to shows when i have the chance, if someones interested ill gladly build one for the right price or gladly sell mine for the right price

my exocar will be forsale to anyone who is interested enough to inquire, if someone wants a fast car that will be unlike anyother car available then exocar would be the way to go and thats why im interested in building one...plus a normal cookie cutter car off the lot doesnt perform like i would want it to and dropping 20 grand into a new car will not get it to what i can spend 15grand and get out of an exocar

[cheapracer]

A base honda or Ecotech might be a perfect fit for most drivers of the atom. The problem is that most *buyers* of the atom want a perfect fit for Michael Shumaker (I wouldn't have come up with this unless I weren't guilty myself). .

How true except a base 200hp motor is still far too much for John Smith but you come across the problem that if John wants to buy one he isn't going to suffer a small (body digit) accusation by buying the 120hp one that suits him best when Joe Blow around the corner owns a 200hp version.

[devilman2075]

keep in mind that the same 200 hp motor in an rsx is fair enough let alone the hp per ton rating in an exo car of near 400hp per ton....so forced induction comes along and makes that basically 600hp per ton....something no car truly needs weighing in at barely over 1,000 pounds. i suspect traction would become an issue pretty quickly and wider tires would definitly be needed

[cheapracer]

Tyres are more related to weight than power.

200hp per ton is when things really start to happen, 400hp is insane and near not drivable (on road) and 600...well you had better ask Bolus about that!

[LexTalonis]

So are there plans to release a Sonic 7 (or even better a Rocket) with DSI mounts or is this just a pipe dream at the moment. Try as I might, I just can't seem to get behind the Zetec as a motor with real potential, but otherwise love the MEV cars.

Sean

[Karlo]

So are there plans to release a Sonic 7 (or even better a Rocket) with DSI mounts or is this just a pipe dream at the moment. Try as I might, I just can't seem to get behind the Zetec as a motor with real potential, but otherwise love the MEV cars.

Sean

The Standard is Zetec or Duratec mounts. Kits are designed to let anyone express themselves.

[devilman2075]

Tyres are more related to weight than power.

200hp per ton is when things really start to happen, 400hp is insane and near not drivable (on road) and 600...well you had better ask Bolus about that!

tires are more related to traction then weight, wider tires equals more rubber touching the ground which equals more traction, this is why you dont see drag cars or even nascar/indy cars on 9 inch tires


lex - i agree with your stand on the zetec motor, but the price of building this compared to anyother is my main selling point. in the end it will still be an exo car and still be very fast, granted id love for this kit to be honda kseries or even any honda at that but im not about to go down the experiment road and make this project an even bigger project. i'll satisfy my need for a sick custom cars with the rocket and its ford powered engine and when that gets old who knows.

[cheapracer]

tires are more related to traction then weight, wider tires equals more rubber touching the ground which equals more traction, this is why you dont see drag cars or even nascar/indy cars on 9 inch tires


l.

Have a look at the Ariel 500 with 500hp and 600kgs and look at what size tyres they use then look at a Ferrari Enzo with 500hp but 1300kgs and see what size tyres they use.

Racing cars have different needs and the tyres are built to a specific spec for that purpose - you don't see people driving around the roads on racing tyres.

[devilman2075]

well in all technicality yes i have seen people drive on the street with racing tires curtesy of my high school buddies tubbed out drag car that was somehow inspected for street use ha

i see your point but yes they may use specific tires for the car but i gurantee if your having traction problems and you upgrade tire width on the rear you will see improvement, reguardless of weight. ferrari is a supercar, basically designed for the track and im sure if u switched to a normal sized tire width u would spin tire for days if you cant already

my whole point is this....wether you wanna believe aesthetics or not, a wider tire will provide not only more traction but a slightly wider base can improve handling through turns, it will add weight which is a down fall but if your making a 400-600 hp per ton rocket and your spinning your stock tires easier then you should. your options are limited to take performance away from the motor or upgrade tire size wether you drive an enzo or an exocar, if you need traction where do you look? tires? exactly.

[cheapracer]

.

1. Ferrari is a supercar, basically designed for the track and im sure if u switched to a normal sized tire width u would spin tire for days if you cant already

2. a wider tire will provide not only more traction but a slightly wider base can improve handling through turns, i.

1. The Enzo has a "normal" sized tyre, it's the normal sized tyre selected through a very long and complex development process. It's the normal sized tyre for an Enzo Ferrari and is a different sized tyre from a normal Ariel Atom tyre that performs in a different manner.


2. That is a 1970's high school fallacy and again I point you in the direction of Atom but please feel free to look at other lightweight sports cars such as Lotus or Caterham and see what size tyres they use in comparison to heavy sports cars like Lambo or Porshe.

Ariel have absolutely no problems with bodywork (duh) for tyre fitment and is the worlds most successful uncompromised sports car you can buy yet Ariel fit a near family car width tyre, do you know better than they do?

Note I am talking about quality sports cars intended for quality road use which is what most aim for around here as I see it.

[devilman2075]

Id rather not go back and forth on this, ur obviously not understanding what I'm saying...all I'm saying is a wider tire, which means more pavement contact equals more traction...agree or disagree go ahead and try it

Second just going over basic numbers I couldn't find stock tire width for the atom but let's see here

Ferrari enzo
Tires 19x9, 651 hp, 3009lbs, 432hp/ton

Atom
Sorry no tire size was consistent when I looked
300hp,1400lbs, 428hp/ton

2008 honda civic ex
16x6.5, 140hp,2738lbs,102hp/ton


Now I would imagine a 6.5 inch tire on the atom wouldn't last long if ur right foot is heavy, but I could see an 8-9 inch wide tire basically doing its job...this is all I'm saying. You have it in ur head that weight is such a huge factor, and IT IS but opposite of what your thinking, 300 hp is gonna be a lot easier to break loose at 1400lbs compared to 2500 plus so wether ur cars heavier or lighter your gonna want extra grip, how do we get this? Bigger tire diameter might provide fractions of an inch of extra rubber making contact but if u increase tire width by an inch or so that completely changes the surface are of the tire contacting the ground which in turn means you will have more traction. Good day sir I will let u rant and rave all u want

[B-T]

Not to argue with you, but my understanding is more in line with the Cheapracer's regarding tire sizing. The key element is to maintain grip with the maximum contact patch possible. If you spread the lightweight load over too much width the contact area will have a reduced pressure in relation to the road surface. Combine that with the tires tendency to turn from the power applied and you may easily exceed the grip of the tire because of the low contact pressure. It is preferable for accelleration to have the contact patch less wide and more longitudinal and the patch is preferred to be wide for cornering to stack tread blocks in line with the forces applied so to speak. If you watch the most critical traction application you can see the forces in slo motion replay. Watch a top fuel dragster and see how the sidewall flexes as the power is applied. If the contact patch was made wider and less longitudinal the tire would break traction much easier. Same thing on an exocar, just less extreme forces at work.
BT

[devilman2075]

yea i hear what your saying but im not saying hey lets go buy 12inch wide tires, im saying if you experience traction issues another step or two up on the rear could help drastically, but to each his own, im just wondering what guys are running cuz looking through alot of threads on the atom my statements have held up where people were looking to upgrade tire width to gain traction and driveability...my bad no need to start an internet war

like i said to each his own, do as you want with your own car, i know if i have traction issues and my choice is rip parts off or upgrade to slightly bigger tires thats not a hard decision

[Conquest351]

I worked in tire sales for years. 4-5 years to be exact. LOL Well exact estimate I'd say. Anyway, wider tires do help LATERAL grip. If you want straight line grip, you need a taller tire.

Say you have a tire that's 245-45-17. Common tire size for Mustangs. That thing is a relatively low profile, so the sidewall is going to be stiff and the contact patch is nice & wide. This is going to be a good handling tire. It will retain it's shape going through corners because of the sidewall strength and the fact there's not much sidewall to distort.

Now let's go for a 245-70-17. Much taller tire, muck taller sidewall. This is going to be a truck size, but let's pretend it's a slick just as we pretended for the other tire. This tire will work great for straight line performance because the contact patch is going to be LONGER, this happens because the sidewall will flex and allow the tire to kind of wrinkle. If you've ever seen a drag car, they have what's called "Wrinkle Wall Slicks" for them. The sidewalls do just that, they wrinkle up to allow the tire to fold in on itself and create a HUGE contact patch to launch the car.

Wider and low profile is great for road racing because you have a wide lateral contact patch. Wide and tall is great for drag racing because you have a wide longitudinal contact patch. Either way, the more rubber on the road, the better I always say. You have to look at the size of the contact patch, that's your only link between car and road.

Laters,

Brian

[mkim1]

Thank you, Brian!!! Great & simple explanation on what used to be one of the longest & craziest thread on the Atom forum.

I originally ordered 215 width rear tires on my Atom. Looks good on 17" rims, but when it comes to launching the car, talk about fish-tailing! Even the UK factory driver said the best rear tires were 245's, minimizing the wheel spin.

If anyone still believes that skinnier tires are better, feel free to check out the youtube video of Atom burnouts sliding side-to-side as if it's on air. I'll just smoke you with my wide & soft rear tires. : )

[Crazyhippy]

Call me crazy, but Physics says: the force of Friction (traction in car terms) is Mu (greek symbol not on the keyboard:thumbdown2:, which varies based on tire compound and driving surface)x Fn (force Normal, which is the force acting directly perpendicular to the driving surface). Friction = Mu x Fn


Ass-u-ming the tires to be the same compound, and the driving surface the same... 215's or 245's will perform the same in a straight line.

Start turning, and you have sidewall flex, caster/camber change, and usually a narrower roll center for the car to deal w/, so things change.

a narrow r-compound tire will work better than a cheap (hard) wide tire. Tire life might not be so hot though:(

I'm able to hook up 380 HP @ the tire thru a 225 on a 15x7 rim on a Porsche 914 (1900lbs:run:) just seems like i'm changing tires as often as i'm changing the oil.:thumbdown2:

[mkim1]

Ass-u-ming the tires to be the same compound, and the driving surface the same... 215's or 245's will perform the same in a straight line.

I'm able to hook up 380 HP @ the tire thru a 225 on a 15x7 rim on a Porsche 914 (1900lbs:run:) just seems like i'm changing tires as often as i'm changing the oil.:thumbdown2:

Hooking up 380 HP w/ 225 tires on a 1,900 lbs. car is pure skills! :clap: Now I wanna see you do it with the same model (same compound) tires, but with 195 tires! : )

[cheapracer]

If anyone still believes that skinnier tires are better, feel free to check out the youtube video of Atom burnouts sliding side-to-side as if it's on air. I'll just smoke you with my wide & soft rear tires. : )

At no point have I myself mentioned "skinny" tyres and mentioning production cars is of no value because they will cut cost where they can not to mention the aquaplane factor to be avoided like the plague. Often an increase for a production car is of quite some value but thats not what we are talkng about. as mentioned quality sports cars are where we are at.

Tyres are just too complicated but compound is far more important than width as is sidewall flex point and contact shape for which if you do go wider you proabably should go larger diameter. Personally from my experience I prefer a larger diameter (not to be confused with a taller tyre).

Many a racing class, especially with mixed cars, run a formula of some type based on weight for engine size and appropriate width of tyre to suit that weight. Not a rant, not a rave, just fact.

I'm suprised you think I'm ranting and raving Devilman, I have given you known facts and even models of cars to compare yet you just keep spouting, without substantiating, that wider is better.

[cheapracer]

Even the UK factory driver said the best rear tires were 245's, minimizing the wheel spin.

If anyone still believes that skinnier tires are better, feel free to check out the youtube video of Atom burnouts sliding side-to-side as if it's on air.

But why didn't he reccomend 275's or 300's?

No thanks, as offensive to me as drifting.

By the way I have seen Atom 300's running 1/4's in the 11's (maybe 10's?) starting in 2nd gear with minimul wheelspin and standard looking wheels widths - some people actually have the ability to squeeze the throttle and feed the clutch appropriately.

[devilman2075]

its obvious im not gonna sit here and go over my head on an argument thats so opinionated...i dont care what a mustang runs on the rear, i dont care what ferraris arerunning on the rear...my point was and was proven by mkim who obviously has an atom...a slightly wider tire will improve traction im not out to disprove physics, worry about why manufacturers select the tires they do(considering most are cheap roughly 200 tread wear anyways)

as i said its going to be opinionated u can believe as u like, i agree that a larger diameter rim as is going to an 18 from a 17 will help substantially also. but my whole thing now with ur post is the fact you stated by looking at videos you can obviously guess the correct tire width right? and ur making it out to seem as if im trying to say lets throw some 10 inch wide tires all im saying is a step wider can help more than it would hurt if ur having traction issues. and then we come to the so very true point of throttle control and feeding the clutch but some people do enjoya nice full throttle launch every now and then

[Conquest351]

So....

Back to the original thread topic...

Why are there so few in the US. Here's my take on it.

US drivers want bigger, badder, better. We are all about excess and the larger the car, the better. That means we have more money right? If I could buy a Bentley and drive it's 6,000 lb ass around all day long then I'd be all over it right? WRONG! That is the way the American public thinks though. Bigger is better. Big house, big car, big boat, etc. Look at the friggin Hummers!! The original Hummer was designed to be a military vehicle, but the American public decided it would be pretty pimp to roll it down the street every day on 26" wheels. Again, bigger is better right?

Now you look at these cars. You would get run the hell over in one of these things in Texas. LOL That combined with the fact that most of the population lives where it's going to be arctic cold in the winter or ball sweating hot in the summer. A vehicle that has no roof or anything to protect you from the elements may not be appealing to the masses. You've gotta be pretty hard core to not care about that stuff. LOL

The appeal of these vehicles to me is the fact they're relatively inexpensive to build, extremely cheap to maintain, and inexpensive to race. Plus for the most part they just look cool as hell. The problem I think is the lack of knowledge about the vehicles.

Everyone kinda knows about the Atom, but that's it. I think a big push in advertising and possibly a race series for these cars would greatly improve the sales and broaden the knowledge about the existance of these vehicles. I think we need to discuss the race series idea in greater detail and have a couple of spec classes and an unlimited class.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.

Laters,

Brian

[cheapracer]

its obvious im not gonna sit here and go over my head on an argument thats so opinionated...

all im saying is a step wider can help more than it would hurt if ur having traction issues.

Well actually the others have put some reasonable arguments up with either background or substance.

Which type of traction issues were you refering too?

Off line traction?
Well lets see if we can get some weight onto the rear, we could pitch the car up at the front a little, raise the car, use some rear shocks with less compression dampening, use some traction aids such as ladder bars, lower the tyre pressures a bit....

Cornering?
We could add or detract some roll stiffness, add some camber possibly, adjust shocks, weight jack, lower the car....

If only fixing a cars handling problems was as easy as throwing tyres at it, increasing tyre grip often shows up other chassis deficiencies.

Race tracks aside, I actually want a car to move around a bit especially in tight to medium mountain stuff, it's faster and proven by rally drivers for the last 50 years.

It's obvious and known to everyone involved in or around the industry that if you throw some thicker anti roll bars, shocks and better/wider tyres at 99.9% of cars in the world that are a compromise between handling and Mum taking Johnny to school after the shopping is done then you will get quite a noticable result.

It's of no interest to me, I like the other 0.1%.

[mkim1]

Great point, Brian. Perhaps a spec race, combined with unlimited class, will get some media attention (similar to 24 hours of Lemons : ) and make it more popular.

Also, to support your point on the protection from elements, I thought I was a hardcore Atom owner until I realized that I'm a sissy (just like the rest of the masses) who didnn't want to carry a helmet & a steering wheel everywhere I went, not to mention a tub of sunscreen in my bag.

On the traction issue, I think we're all talking about the same thing. Given everything else being EQUAL (compound, sidewall specs, etc.), slightly wider tires tend to help the traction more than skinnier tires.

Cheapracer is right on the fact the most OEM's have to make compromises on the cost, performance, corp. fuel econ., packaging, etc. One of the reasons why Lotus, Ariel, & other small EU-based specialty car OEM's go with narrower width wheels & tires is because it's not easy to find production tires & wheels that cater to their light-weight cars (custom tires would be cost-prohibitive for their program budget), while Bugatti has no problem spending tooling money for a custom 365 width rear tires. Even Lamborghini uses 335/30ZR18's in rear on custom 18 x 13 wheels to hook up 630 hp. on 4,000+ lbs.

[Conquest351]

I figured out a way to keep some of the climate control features with an Exocar. Ever heard of those cool shirts? http://www.coolshirt.net/ I would go with one of those setups under motorcycle leathers. The reasoning behind this is that I really don't want debris from the road kicked up and smacking me from other vehicles. LOL I'll take all the protection I can get and still be cool.

[cheapracer]

Also, to support your point on the protection from elements, I thought I was a hardcore Atom owner until I realized that I'm a sissy (just like the rest of the masses) who didnn't want to carry a helmet & a steering wheel everywhere I went, not to mention a tub of sunscreen in my bag.

.

Ahh but some of us come from motorcycle backgrounds.

I still have some years when I don't own a car, just a bike and ride all year 'round.

In my mind the marketing for exo cars is usually sustandard and aimed at the wrong target group - including Ariel.

I always wonder at what point Ariel would be if not for that Top Gear test? I hope they gave JB a freebie as that segment must have exploded their sales targets.

[Pagester]

Ever heard of those cool shirts? http://www.coolshirt.net/

I use one in my race car - its unbelievable how much nicer it is to sit on the grid on 90+ degree days with that ice water flowing through the shirt.

[B-T]

yea i hear what your saying but im not saying hey lets go buy 12inch wide tires, im saying if you experience traction issues another step or two up on the rear could help drastically, but to each his own, im just wondering what guys are running cuz looking through alot of threads on the atom my statements have held up where people were looking to upgrade tire width to gain traction and driveability...my bad no need to start an internet war

like i said to each his own, do as you want with your own car, i know if i have traction issues and my choice is rip parts off or upgrade to slightly bigger tires thats not a hard decision

My mom always said "Everything in moderation!". Like you say, going to a 12 or 14 inch wide tire is an extreme that is probably not being considered. and like you, when I wanted better traction I moved to a slightly wider tire (205 vs. 195). But even more critical is the tire stickiness and some decent sidewall to allow a little flex prior to breaking traction! Going from all season 195/50-15 to some Falken Azeni RT615 205/50-15 is the single biggest improvment I have made to my Ginetta. Having a decent GPS unit with PC programmable routes is the second best improvement.
:)
BT