Wanting to Build

[shedwerks]

Since coming across the Ariel Atom a few years ago while searching the internet I have designed about 6 different chassis' but haven't nailed down a drivetrain. I have two possible donor cars a 1996 Grand Am GT (V6) and a 2000 Lincoln LS (V8). I am curious to any opinions on which car to use first. As I am sure if one works I will build another. I have been fabricating for 15years now but have only built off-road vehicles, the design and fabrication I really enjoy but I prefer to go fast than over rocks. So all past projects have been built for others this would be the first time building something for myself so I want any and all input there is to offer. Thanks

[golftdibrad]

Since coming across the Ariel Atom a few years ago while searching the internet I have designed about 6 different chassis' but haven't nailed down a drivetrain. I have two possible donor cars a 1996 Grand Am GT (V6) and a 2000 Lincoln LS (V8). I am curious to any opinions on which car to use first. As I am sure if one works I will build another. I have been fabricating for 15years now but have only built off-road vehicles, the design and fabrication I really enjoy but I prefer to go fast than over rocks. So all past projects have been built for others this would be the first time building something for myself so I want any and all input there is to offer. Thanks

unless your going to go with an aluminum block v6 or v8 id stick to a boosted four banger or a bike engine.

[cheapracer]

The cast iron GM V6 is one of the lightest engines around for cubes per pound. It weighs 375 lbs and is not much more than many 4's.

GM's thin wall short block cast iron techniques in many cases are lighter than other manufacturers aluminium engines, only cylinder heads are heavier when in cast iron.

I think a Honda K series with trans is 450 lbs but I don't know what the Honda and GM trans weigh but certainly with turbo and intercooler, plumbing and other components the V6 is a competitive and very cheap choice.

[africanstyle]

I'm know expert but I agree with Brad. The Honda engines have a seemingly endless aftermarket, and if you would like a bigger engine maybe even a Toyota Supra. As far as a bike engine, I would probably go with the Hayabusa engine as it also has a massive aftermarket. Some have even been claimed to have reached well over 500hp which is almost 3 times stock. There is also the option of the 2.4-3L Hayabusa-derived V8s from Hartley. Any of these options will keep weight down. In case you become bored, you will have many extra power options, along with lots of noise and great reliability.

[golftdibrad]

The cast iron GM V6 is one of the lightest engines around for cubes per pound. It weighs 375 lbs and is not much more than many 4's.

GM's thin wall short block cast iron techniques in many cases are lighter than other manufacturers aluminium engines, only cylinder heads are heavier when in cast iron.

I think a Honda K series with trans is 450 lbs but I don't know what the Honda and GM trans weigh but certainly with turbo and intercooler, plumbing and other components the V6 is a competitive and very cheap choice.

Thats good info. I still wouldn't want a v8 but a good six without a large weight penalty would be cool

I'm know expert but I agree with Brad. The Honda engines have a seemingly endless aftermarket, and if you would like a bigger engine maybe even a Toyota Supra. As far as a bike engine, I would probably go with the Hayabusa engine as it also has a massive aftermarket. Some have even been claimed to have reached well over 500hp which is almost 3 times stock. There is also the option of the 2.4-3L Hayabusa-derived V8s from Hartley. Any of these options will keep weight down. In case you become bored, you will have many extra power options, along with lots of noise and great reliability.

The busa is a good choice, but its expensive as hell for the same reason.

[cheapracer]

I'm know expert but I agree with Brad. The Honda engines have a seemingly endless aftermarket, and if you would like a bigger engine maybe even a Toyota Supra. As far as a bike engine, I would probably go with the Hayabusa engine as it also has a massive aftermarket. Some have even been claimed to have reached well over 500hp which is almost 3 times stock. There is also the option of the 2.4-3L Hayabusa-derived V8s from Hartley. Any of these options will keep weight down. In case you become bored, you will have many extra power options, along with lots of noise and great reliability.

The Honda 2.4 is a good cheap choice for easy hp, 200, and torque as are some other 2.4's.

The Supra is way too heavy let alone too long for the purpose, not saying it can't be done of course.

Bike engines need reverse and constant driving that I personally find annoying after a while, revs, change gears etc.

The Hartley simply puts you in another money league, not saying he is but most OP's who build their own I have found tend to do so within a reasonable budget.

The ultimate power to weight unit on a budget is of course the 3.5 litre Rover V8, lighter than many 4's at 320 lbs and used on mass for many a kit/special/race/unique car in the UK - I am not aware of it's availability in the US or elsewhere though.

[cheapracer]

The busa is a good choice, but its expensive as hell for the same reason.

Thats because of their reputation and desirability. Another good choice is a Kawa 1400 crate engine from Muzzy Kawasaki (thats the USA).

I would shoot for a Vmax myself, easy 160+hp with good torque and turn it sideways so you have a bank each side of the car and can run your chain off the shaft drive.

[iflyfast1]

Another engine that I haven't seen discussed is the Mazda 13B rotary. It's a1.3 liter engine and in the 3rd gen RX7 it had twin sequential turbos and put out 255 hp stock. I had one years ago in a 94 RX7. With an aftermarket intake, exhaust, intercooler, and some dyno time/tune we got 360 hp at the rear wheels, and that was with stock turbos. Very wide torque band, and linear acceleration throughout the rpm range. I loved that engine. It felt like a turbine engine.

[golftdibrad]

Not really any real weight advantage. But they are cool sounding and like to rev to the sky.

Another engine that I haven't seen discussed is the Mazda 13B rotary. It's a1.3 liter engine and in the 3rd gen RX7 it had twin sequential turbos and put out 255 hp stock. I had one years ago in a 94 RX7. With an aftermarket intake, exhaust, intercooler, and some dyno time/tune we got 360 hp at the rear wheels, and that was with stock turbos. Very wide torque band, and linear acceleration throughout the rpm range. I loved that engine. It felt like a turbine engine.

[iflyfast1]

Plus they tend to tune these rich (for cooling) so if you get on the throttle hard and then let up quick you get a really cool looking flame shooting out the back of the car. Hard on the exhaust but it's great for roasting hotdogs :D

[africanstyle]

I like cheapracer's idea with the landrover V8. But there definitely is going to be a challenge when it comes to availability. If anything, you could try to salvage one. Otherwise, I would stick to something easy to tune/upgrade so that you will not have to worry about becoming bored with it. That's always been a key factor for me when I think about engines like this.

[cheapracer]

"Landrover engine" - doesn't exactly give conentations of high performance! :D

[pn7]

If you want to go V8-Toyota UZ series, V6-NISSAN VQ SERIES 2-4 litre. Wikipedia will give you the facts

[cheapracer]

Ok, so why would you choose a Lexus 4.0 V8 over a Chev 5.7 LS1?

Ok, so why would you choose a Nissan 3.5 V6 over a Chev LY7 3.6 V6?

[pn7]

OK so why would suggest an old tech 3.5 (1960-70's) olds/Rover/P76 Motor that would not pass licencing emmissions. Toyota & Nissan Jap engineering & reliability new tech.

[cheapracer]

Because I know where the OP lives besides the amazing all up weight of 320lbs, same as most Japanese 4's actually and the non turbo ones at that. The specific power to weight ratio is why they are still hugely popular in Europe. Heres an example - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westfield_SEight

This is not an American specific forum nor am I American nor am I a "Chev" Guy but I would not hesitate to take a LS1 or a LY7 over the other 2. Americans simply do big engines best and Japanese simply do 4's best.

Some engine weights including dressed with A/C, P/S, ALT, wiring harness and ECM.
5.7 LS-1 = 480lbs
4.0 1uz, 4.3 3uz = 470lbs
4.7 2uz = 540lbs

If your interested you will find some Ford 5.0 V8's to be even lighter.

official Toyota manual....

[cheapracer]

Now for the V6's..

3.5 2GR-FSE = 400lbs (Toyota)
3.8 GM = 375 (cast iron block AND heads)
3.6 Alloytech = 370lbs
3.5 VQ = 390lbs

Verification of the Toyota weight...

[pn7]

Explain 3.5 ROVER???. I own the V6 GMH commodore and you would have to be a total retard to compare them with a 3.5 V6 Skyline. As for the Chev V8 oil cloud still hangs over them, GHM have fitted huge numbers of new engines under warranty.Look up Bullit Cars Theory is great, practicial experience is far better,go to a race track you might learn something.

[cheapracer]

1.Explain 3.5 ROVER???.

2/ I own the V6 GMH commodore and you would have to be a total retard to compare them with a 3.5 V6 Skyline.

3/ As for the Chev V8 oil cloud still hangs over them, GHM have fitted huge numbers of new engines under warranty.

4/ practicial experience is far better,go to a race track you might learn something.

1/ Umm it's a 3.5 made by Rover? Well you seem to have spelled it right, what else did you need to know? I must have missed your point...

2/ The 3.5 Nissan isn't that bad, a little bit too big and slightly porky but give it some credit. Oh and a bit of history, when Nissan set out their VQ design criteria, guess what motor they used as the target to match or beat? Did you guess GM V6 3800? Your right! You ought to educate yourself in some of the American V6 forums and see what budget hp those guys get, let alone the serious money guys (their level of serious still being very cheap by the way).

3/ Err Chev V8, you mean the most successful street and performance engine on the face of the planet ever? Warranty claims are standard thruout the industry, Some of the earlier Gen 3's had piston problems until they made GM USA realise that Oz people thrash the crap out of their cars from cold and so they used a different piston source to suit. Whats the problem anyway, Holden didn't deny anybody their rightful warranty and I know people who had a brand new motor installed in a VT at 80,000kms and not a spot of trouble now at 300,000kms - I would say that pretty generous of Holden actually.

4/ Oh thanks for the tip and you obviously know me :wave:

[pn7]

Another cheap side step
1)Ageeded,read posts
2)Nissan GTR
3)A good mass produced motor. In std form not up to Jap or European standards
4)Kiwi crayfish?

ps 4B63T still heavier than SR20DET,do you have your hands on more than your experience?

[cheapracer]

.

Oh praise the Riceburner, the Riceburner is LORD!

You ended any chance of further Fact Vs Riceburner debate with your last smartass sentence child.

[pn7]

good answer, you trying to win browny pionts now.

[AZDave]

Is'nt the 3.5 Rover actually a Buick? :)

[pn7]

Its going back along way (1961),Oldsmobile-Buick 215, Repco Brabham F1 used them destroked in the mid 60's. Good blocks would be hard to find, then you have to meet regulations.

[africanstyle]

Ok, well hopefully you guys are done arguing. But this obviously comes down to power and weight (and maybe throw in reliability and value for money). You might as well make a chart and compare and contrast. Right now, it seems like your best option as opposed to arguing with cheap. The chances are a V6 is going to be the best choice. You can tune them somewhat easily for power (especially the Jap engines) and you should get reliability, weight saving, and most likely, better mileage. Now I'm no expert at this, I am just sharing my opinion. In the end, it will be your decision.

[pn7]

We can only make suggestions,find something you feel happy with that will suit your expectations and is easily obtainable.Check licencing regulations and ask if a building permit is required. I would suggest trying to obtain the newest donor you can afford.If there is a sports car builders club local join it or even start your own,it gives you a lot more voice with regulatory bodies.

[cheapracer]

Is'nt the 3.5 Rover actually a Buick? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_V8_engine

Sure in the same way as a LS1 is actually a 1955 265 cube SBC.