Rotrex "Race" kits available for K Series and others

[Gage]

http://www.kraftwerksusa.com/products.php

Rotrex Superchargers are a combination of turbocharger and supercharger technology that absolutely own previous technology. (IMO)
Research this stuff if you haven't heard about it. Its amazing.

There is finally a kit available state side for the K series engines. The "Race Kit" will require fabrication of intake piping and a tuning solution of your own.

Help me figure out how to put one on a K series SL-R. Grin.

I would be happy to see one on any exocar, in addition to CalScott's Atom.

My first question is where to put the intercooler. See the S-2000 kit for a shot of one of their kit provided intercoolers.

[Craig – Absolute PACE]

Interesting stuff.

Well you could fit a F1 style rear engine scoop and mount the intercooler(& air filter pod) inside that.

[Karlo]

-Kit REQUIRES removal of A/C Compressor

Bummer!!

[soon_2b_evil]

-Kit REQUIRES removal of A/C Compressor

Bummer!!


who needs ac in a SL-R?
Yeha ive been looking that, actuallly but man its a Grip. Its liek 2800 just for that setup, and then you still have custom make your intercooler piping and stuff. If you can weld i think your better off going with a turbo setup. Thats what im going to do. actually just got my K24 block, looking for a head and getting this thing broken down so i can build it nad mock up a exhaust manifold.! LOL

[Chadillac]

That's awesome news Karlo! Especially for us that don't have to pass any emissions. :)

I laughed when I saw the kit for the Honda Fit. That's too funny.

[Gage]

-Kit REQUIRES removal of A/C Compressor

Bummer!!



Sarcasm noted and appreciated. =0)

[Conquest351]

Cool looking setup. I like the self contained oiling. Good stuff.

Personally though, I'd go turbo and ditch the parasitic drag from the front of the motor. ;) But I'm a turbo guy.

[StatGSR]

who needs ac in a SL-R?
Yeha ive been looking that, actuallly but man its a Grip. Its liek 2800 just for that setup, and then you still have custom make your intercooler piping and stuff.

its 2200 for just a rotrex supercharger. so 2800 to make it bolt on doesnt sound like a bad deal to me. iv always been a fan of the rotrex SC since i first learned about em. and really making some intercooler piping shouldnt be that hard or expensive. gunna be much cheaper than getting hondata and good tune. any turbo kit out there is guna cost you atleast 2800 and still going to require the same amount of work to get it installed.

as far as IC mounting goes i would just mount it right in between the 2 head rests, looks to be plenty of room there, and woulnd only require a little bit of piping up from the SC and basicly a U piece to connect to the TB.

[Gage]

Guys, please dont take this the wrong way. If you say you would rather go turbo, or rather supercharge... you just don't know what the Rotrex is capable of. This thing is to forced induction what air filled tires were for cars.

I hear you saying: "Yea that sounds good and all, but for the money I would rather have a good reliable horse instead of one of them fancy otto-mo-beels."

The air intake temperatures at a given boost level are reduced to degree that is unbelievable relative to turbocharging, with multiple beneficial results. Then the way the boost is delivered provides for a more predictable tune-able environment that greatly increases engine reliablity.

With that said, yes..conventional turbocharging and supercharging will probably be cheaper, because they are now nearly obsolete in light of the Rotrex.

Rotrex is just bad to the freakin bone horsepower technology.

More info: http://www.rotrex.com/web2005/pdfs/Rotrex_website_printer_friendly_version.pdf

[Gage]

But upon reflection I must recognize that few people have had their heads filled with the nonsense that has dribbled into my ears.

I called up a couple of companies testing out new Rotrex kits on various cars. They were datalogging intake temperatures and boost delivery, wheel horse power, etc...... and peeing in their pants over the results.

Thus the prices.

[Gage]

And the best info I've seen so far from the TTS website:

This might help you...... It is off the TTS website


"ROTREX superchargers are not positive displacement but work on the principle of a turbine, the same way that turbochargers operate. In order for this principle to work the turbine has to spin at very high speed. In turbochargers the hot exhaust gases spin the turbine up to speeds of up to 150,000RPM. TTS/ROTREX superchargers spin up to 250,000 rpm depending on model. To get these high speeds in the TTS/ROTREX supercharger the input drive shaft operates through a special planetary gearbox to speed up the turbine, the result being high-pressure air out of a compact unit the size of an alternator.

The gearbox is a fixed ratio traction roller transmission, which has a built in capability to adjust contact forces applied to the traction surfaces of the transmission in relation to the force required. Traction roller transmissions require relatively large engagement forces between their traction surfaces to prevent slippage.

The TTS/ROTREX unit automatically adjusts the contact force, to optimise the gear for those applications where the transmission transmits less torque, the amount of frictional losses and wear is reduced. Where full torque is transmitted, the transmission has the capability to provide sufficient traction force to prevent slippage.

The TTS/ROTREX charger being of this turbine type overcomes the drawbacks of previous superchargers, these problems being the main reason car manufacturers started to develop turbo chargers some 20 years ago and only now are manufacturers coming back to look at superchargers.

The benefits of the TTS/ROTREX charger over other superchargers are firstly being centrifugal they take little power to drive and so save BHP that would otherwise be lost in driving the unit. Another benefit to using the TTS/ROTREX, as opposed to any displacement charger is the fact all displacement chargers produce maximum boost at about 3000 engine rpm and then tail off as you rev higher. This is a big problem when driving, as you do not want near max power at low rpm as you get tremendous traction problems, which is a particular problem if you compete in drag races and standing quarter miles, as all you do is spin the wheels and go nowhere. The TTS/ROTREX, being a centrifugal type charger has a nice even increase in boost pressure rising in a linear pattern, with useable extra power from 1000 engine rpm and max boost at say 11000 rpm (or at what ever you desire, depending on the engine).

The TTS/ROTREX supercharger conversion offers huge advantages over a turbocharger:

Total drivability: - what you do with the throttle is transmitted directly to the rear wheel.

No throttle lag: - instant throttle response.

No huge surge in power: - power is progressive, increasing right to the redline.

Reduced peak cylinder pressures: - as torque is spread over a large range of rpm with no sudden increase, peak torque is lower but more useable.

Reduced strain on engine components: - with the increased useable rev range and progressive torque increase engine components are not subject to massive changes in cylinder pressure associated with turbo installations.

Efficiency is higher: - as there is no heat build up within the supercharger the input air temperature is significantly reduced over a turbocharger, reducing detonation and increasing power output and efficiency. A typical turbocharger has an efficiency of 65% a TTS/ROTREX is 72%.

Exhaust temperatures reduced: - unlike turbo’s there is no excessive back pressure and heat build up within the engine and engine bay. This keeps engine components within their design perimeters and reduces fatigue in components like exhaust valves, seats and springs and reduces water and oil temperature.

Safety: - In race applications, engine components are pushed to and beyond their limits. In the event of an engine disintegrating the destroyed components ejected out of the exhaust do not go through the supercharger. On a turbocharger the exhaust impeller would be destroyed requiring a total turbo rebuild.

Reduced replacement time: - If the supercharger was to break (highly unlikely) then a new one could be fitted in less than 10 minutes.

The TTS/ROTREX supercharger conversion offers huge advantages over normally aspirated:

More horsepower: - normally aspirated engines will never make as much power as a well developed ROTREX supercharged engine.

Less cost: - the TTS/ROTREX supercharged engine will cost less per BHP than NA engines.

Less fussy: - the TTS/ROTREX supercharged engine drives much more smoothly with no defined power band unlike a highly tuned NA engine.

Easier starting: - with the same or less compression than an NA engine there is no extra strain on the starter motor or starter gear train.

Lower maintenance: - Without wild cams and stronger valve springs the valve gear gets an easier time and the cam chain and tensioners last longer.

Less fatigue: - as the boost damps the pistons inertia during the valve overlap period there is less stretch on connecting rods. As power is progressive there is no unnecessary stress on any engine component as the full rev range can be used.

The engine does not have to be made larger to produce the power, so there is no need to replace with pistons of larger diameter or the cost of reboring or replating.

Combining the TTS/ROTREX supercharger conversion with normally aspirated tuning.

We have found that wilder camshafts can be used to an advantage with the supercharged engine."

[Chadillac]

Nice info. Gage. I was reading about this on a Honda forum and it sounds pretty awesome. I'm just wondering how reliable this would be on the K20A with the very high compression (11.7:1). Even the K20A2 has a 11:1 compression ratio. It sounds like the K24 'Frankenstein' engine would be a good candidate for this.

[Gage]

Nice info. Gage. I was reading about this on a Honda forum and it sounds pretty awesome. I'm just wondering how reliable this would be on the K20A with the very high compression (11.7:1). Even the K20A2 has a 11:1 compression ratio. It sounds like the K24 'Frankenstein' engine would be a good candidate for this.

Or a stock k24A2 (Acura TSX) boosted to only 300whp. One of the kit makers told me that 300whp with one of these kits on a k series engine was "Very conservative"

For the record, they are developing these kits for the Civic SI as we type this. That would imply to me that it can be done easily, with a very reasonable level of reliability.

And if you had ever heard a Rotrex Supercharger going full bore ..you'd be in love.

Bolt on and Tune.

[Conquest351]

Ok, seems I set off a nice little rant here Gage. LOL All the info presented looks and sounds fantastic.
My main deal with superchargers is the inefficiency (parasitic drag, time to spool the centrifugal units, etc.). Turbochargers also have their problems, mainly the lag and heat generated. I'm not completely against superchargers, hell they are muuuuch easier to do than a turbo kit as I've done many of both.
This Rotex unit sounds awesome though. I was looking for flow numbers and HP expectations and you provided them. Great work. I am wanting to use an Ecotec Turbocharged engine or the SRT-4 engine on my SLR, so I'm guessing I'm going to need the ol' tuner kit. I believe AEM makes stand alone ECU's for both of these engines.
I'd love to see and hear more info about these systems.

Laters,

Brian

[soon_2b_evil]

I wasnt saying anythign bad about this setup. I actually wanted to do this setup but since i could build a exhaust manifold and build everything else myself i fig it would be cheaper to just do turbo. I mean ive seen some of the videos with this SC on it and its really nice and quiet! I like the power and everythings about it.

[Gage]

I didn't take your comments as criticism of the Rotrex Supercharger. (which will be superceded by something else better in due time)

I simply saw an empty place and filled it with information.

You guys are first class car nuts in my book.

[Conquest351]

I'm glad my comments weren't taken as criticism. Normally I don't criticise anyone unless they really deserve it. LOL The Rotex system is just new to me, and thank you very much for the information.

Another supercharger that was experimented with back in the day and is making a comeback due to new technology is the axial flow supercharger. Basically the compressor side of a gas turbine engine. Check out this link...

http://www.axialflow.com/

Laters,

Brian

[Chadillac]

Another supercharger that was experimented with back in the day and is making a comeback due to new technology is the axial flow supercharger. Basically the compressor side of a gas turbine engine. Check out this link...

http://www.axialflow.com/


Brian, you always find the craziest stuff! I'm guessing that if you ever build a SL-R it's going to be the wildest one out there.

It looks like the company is building some stuff for the S2000. I'd be interested to see what the come out with as it will probably apply to the K-series.

[Conquest351]

Yeah, if & when I get an SLR, I'll also go for an SLC. LOL I want and dream of an SLC powered by a turbocharged 4 rotor wankel.
As far as the SLR, I won't be happy with under 500hp. Hehe The more I read about the turbocharged direct injected GM Ecotec engine, the more I like it. Just need some cams, ported head, and bigger turbo and off we go!! Hell, if I could find a gas turbine I could mate to a FWD transmission, I'd be all over that too. LOL

Yeah I know, champagne dreams and ice water budget...

[Chadillac]

My vote would be for the gas turbine powered SL-R. I hope you've seen that video on Jay Leno's garage where he shows off his turbine powered motorcycle. I can't even think of a word that describes how good that sounds. I love it when he says, "when I power this thing up, even the Harley guys shut up."

Maybe Nissan's CVT would work?

[Conquest351]

Yeah, a CVT would probably be the optimal choice... But there's just something I love about shifting. I love to do the whole heel-toe thing to impress the ladies... LOL That and powershifting.

Hhmm, CVT mated to a gas turbine...

May have to start another thread about this idea... :thumb2:

[Chadillac]

It's amazing what you can find on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Turbine-Jet-Engine-Small-Engine-Huge-Horsepower_W0QQitemZ260262582733QQcmdZViewItem?has h=item260262582733&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

[Conquest351]

I used to have a link that had a huge chart with all kinds of manufacturers of turbines, their weight and HP rating. Look for that. LOL I'm tired of searching.

[Chadillac]

To get this thread back on track... I found this dyno graph of an almost stock K20A2 with the rotrex supercharger kit.

[Gage]

To get this thread back on track... I found this dyno graph of an almost stock K20A2 with the rotrex supercharger kit.

That is was I'm talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you are a fan of dyno charts, that one screams FUN.

[Gage]

http://www.kingmotorsports.com/news.aspx?showarticle=341

Oh man. Chadillac you should have mentioned the DETAILS. That was at only 7 psi on a stock K20A2. Incredible.

The Headline:
7.28.2008
King Motorsports Tunes 325+ WHP from Stock K20A2 @7 PSI with Kraftwerks Supercharger

[Chadillac]

Sorry Gage.

Details:
2003 RSX Type S K20A2 (Completely Stock Long Block)
RBC Intake Manifold
Stock RSX Type S Throttle Body
Skunk2 1st. Article Swap Header
Skunk2 70mm Mega Power RR Exhaust
Crappy Tube and Fin FMIC that was just lying around
King Motorsports Charge Pipes
King Motorsports Tune
93 Octane

AND

Krafwerks supercharger at 7.35 psig

Hmmm... I wonder what kind of numbers you could pull with a K24?

[Gage]

Wow.. ask for details and the man gives them!

I just can't get over that. It makes me want to dance.

That is in part because I know that the intake temps were incredible low vs. a typical turbocharged setup.

[Chadillac]

That is in part because I know that the intake temps were incredible low vs. a typical turbocharged setup.

That's the part that I don't understand about these. The air heats up because you compress it. Why does a turbocharger have such higher intake temperatures? Is that much heat conducted through the exhaust side of the turbocharger?

[Gage]

This is a good link on the subject.
http://www.mrcontrols.com/primers/sizing.htm

But note the red text below from that link:


171F is how much the compressor is going to heat the air above the inlet temp, so the real outlet temp is 171 + 85, or 256F. What happens when this air mass hits the IC? Two things: first, a pressure drop and second, a temperature drop. The pressure drop is going to be about 0.5psi for a good sidemount IC such as the GReddy, HKS or Spearco units and we will assume a 65% efficiency number which is reasonable for a good side mount IC:

T IC drop = (T IC in - T ambient) * IC efficiency

So we get:

T IC drop = (256 - 85) * 0.65 = 111F

Therefore the IC will drop the turbo outlet temp by 111F, turning the 256F air into 145F air and dropping the pressure 0.5psi to 14.5psig. What does this do to our normally aspirated engine?


Did you see the comment about the S2000 kit? This is from Oscar Jackson Jr.

"IATs with a Rotrex are much cooler than other forms of forced induction. See, the Rotrex is not coupled to a heat source like others. A turbo has a glowing hot exhaust manifold tied to it, and the FMIC cannot take all of the additional heat out. The Rotrex produces air at much lower temperatures already, and when coupled with a FMIC, temperatures are extremely low! Results with our 10psi S2000 kit have shown temps normally +3 degrees over ambient!
-OJR"

[Conquest351]

All the above information is very corect and accurate!! Great post!!!

I used to work for a performance shop in Austin, TX called Motion Dynamics. We specialized in forced induction, did so many SVO's I can't even count. We really specialized in those bad boys. Hehe Anyway, we also did quite a few supercharger installations on various era Mustangs. We had a customer who was pretty well off financially and wanted to gather as much information to make his vehicle as efficient as possible. We installed a Vortech S-Trim system on his 99 Mustang Convertible. We also installed a custom front mount intercooler system with a Bell Engineering intercooler. We then installed thermalcouples so we could monitor temperatures right out of the supercharger, and right into the throttle body. That way we knew the most accurate temperature readings. Here's what we got...

Ambient Temperature: 90-95 Degrees (it was a few years ago)
Supercharger Outlet: 225 Degrees
Throttle Body Inlet: 108 Degrees

Intercoolers help TONS!! So does methanol injection or using E85 fuel. The alcohol evaporates and pulls all the inlet charge temperature with it. Texas Motorsports took a C6 Z06 off the showroom floor, twin turbocharged it, converted it to run E85, didn't put intercoolers on it, and it runs 9's. E85 is good stuff. ESPECIALLY FOR FORCED INDUCTION OR HIGH COMPRESSION!!!

As I said before, great info Gage!!

Laters,

Brian

[Chadillac]

Thanks for the reply guys. While I can accept the fact that a turbocharger is going to add quite a bit of heat throught conduction being attached to the exhaust manifold, I still don't see how they're able to get intake temperatures only 3 degrees higher over ambient in Kraftwerk's S2000 example.

Say for example you have a 100% efficient compressor that you borrowed from you local physics proffessor.

Tout = Tin * r^((gamma-1)/gamma)

gamma for air = 1.4
r = 24.7/14.7 (at sea level) = 1.68
Tin = 70 F or 530 R (I'm guessing)

This means your outlet temperature of your 100% compressor would equal about 155 F.

This means you would need an intercooler that is almost 86% efficient even with your 100% efficient intercooler. 86% is quite a bit higher than your typically good efficient intercooler at 65%.

Having said that, I still think that this new Rotrex Supercharger is quite amazing. Having seen dyno graphs, this thing pulls quite amazing numbers with the K-series engine. I just don't think it's possible to get only +3 degrees over ambient air temperatures. There has to be something else here that they're not telling us.

I'm probably just being too anal about this though. I'm sure when you've got this thing hooked up and floor it, you won't give a hoot to what your intake temperatures are. You'll just know that it pulls like heck.

[Conquest351]

Unless of course they're using a frozen air to water intercooler or spraying the intercooler with water & alcohol. A bunch of Starion/Conquest (I used to have one with a 351-Windsor in it) guys used to do that to their front mounted intercoolers. They'd route the windshield washer nozzles so they spray on the intercooler. The alcohol evaporates the water and causes great cooling. I'd bet they're using an ice water circulated intercooler though.

[bolus]

Hey gage, let's race when you are done with your rotrex installation :)

[Gage]

Hey gage, let's race when you are done with your rotrex installation :)

Your Atom will be sold by then and my beast that could be, will be halfway across the country from you... but, other than those minor details.... Your on! :thumb2:

[bolus]

Not selling. Staying in Oregon after all. I actually got out the measuring tape to see if I could fit a rotrex in the atom and twin charge it. wont fit though :(

[Gage]

Enjoy the heck out of it as is Bolus. The motor will blow up or burn out eventually. It is the way of turbo motors. Been there, done that. Then... go with a BIG Rotrex unit. Grin

[Gage]

This quote was taken from someone testing a Rotrex on an RSX.

"Been out playing since Saturday lunchtime. Pulled off the clock on Sunday morning about 1 am (their going to put me away :laughing: ) There's absolutely no lag at any throttle. As on the rollers she pulls harder and harder to the rev limit, spins the wheels when she hits 6000 in third, got through 2 tanks of gas. ITS ADDICTIVE :laughing: :laughing: the clutch is still hanging in as is the gearbox."

[Gage]

So I found out the Rotrex all out kit for the Civic SI is coming out Fall of 08. You would simply bolt it all on including a piggy back fuel management solution, and Wallah!: Rocharged you are! (with the exception of custom intercooler piping needed)

I called Kraftwerks to confirm that the kit would work.

This led me to the "why shouldn't I just get a Civic SI Swap and slap on that kit" train of thought.

Kraftwerks advised me that any kind of project like this would go hand in had with a Kpro, that it would be almost if not in fact, a necessity. The kpro would negate the piggy back tuning paid for in the "Kit".

Then there was the fact that the intercooler piping from the kit would not be usable, and I might end up having my own intercooler built to fit in the other air ram on the SL-R. The kit idea washed away, along with the motivation to switch the SI motor that it will be made for.

So back to the K24A2.

[Gage]

Also, Kraftwerks said that the K series race kit made 325 wheel horse power at only 7psi on a recent dyno session.

[Gage]

Another Rotrex dyno sheet, probably from the same car posted earlier. It is a beautiful thing.

[cordycord]

Rotrex is good stuff-I saw them at SEMA and was really impressed. Oscar Jackson has "hands on" experience Rotrex (and everything else under the sun), supercharger kits, and clearly knows his way around a Honda motor.

www.jacksonracing.com